2 Thes 2:3

[CrowCross]

2 Thes 2:3 says...

1599 Geneva 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

ESV Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

NASB No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

For a study of the word 646. apostasia click link. The word was only used twice. The root word 868. aphistémi may help with the understanding of the word.

The word seems to have several nuances depending on the context of the verse. The verse in context is a review of 1st Thess as Paul was trying to fix the false teachings in the false letter.

The question is...what is the "apostasia" shown in red above? Is it physical or spiritual?

Is it the church falling away from the teaching of the bible....or....is it the church physically departing from the earth...as in the RAPTURE?
The 1599 version used departing and the later translators choose to use words that represent a defection rather than a physical leaving.

Right now I'm going with "Rapture". That is the idenity of anti-christ will not be know until after the rapture.

The verse can be read as follows...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rapture comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I'm not sure why Paul is addressing the thessalonians. The falling away or apostacy takes place in Israel. Revelation refers to the falling away as (Babylon is fallen). It's when the Israeli recieve the mark of their king.

Revelation 14:8-9
A second angel followed and said, “’Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

At that time, the persecution of the saints begins. They will be persecuted because they warn others not to take the mark. The king of the north gives Israel an army which is the second beast in Revelation 13.The one that makes fire come down from heaven.

Daniel 11:32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

42 months later is the appointed time.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm not sure why Paul is addressing the thessalonians. The falling away or apostacy takes place in Israel. Revelation refers to the falling away as (Babylon is fallen). It's when the Israeli recieve the mark of their king.

Revelation 14:8-9
A second angel followed and said, “’Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

At that time, the persecution of the saints begins. They will be persecuted because they warn others not to take the mark. The king of the north gives Israel an army which is the second beast in Revelation 13.The one that makes fire come down from heaven.

Daniel 11:32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

42 months later is the appointed time.

The way I see it. those verses don't seem to be related...as Paul was not addressing those issues.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The way I see it. those verses don't seem to be related...as Paul was not addressing those issues.

Those are the issues Paul is addressing.
Paul is referencing Daniels prophecy concerning the king of the north.It's about the final 3.5 years before Jerusalems desolation and the redemption of the saints.
3.5 years of tribulation for the saints in Israel.

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

2 thes2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[CrowCross]

Those are the issues Paul is addressing.
Paul is referencing Daniels prophecy concerning the king of the north.It's about the final 3.5 years before Jerusalems desolation and the redemption of the saints.
3.5 years of tribulation for the saints in Israel.

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

2 thes2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Your not addressing the word.

I agree with daniels prophecy and other prophecies in the bible....but when you use the concept of departed...rather than falling away...it shows the rapture will occur prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Jesus spoke of that time period in israel as well. Alot of people don't endure till the end. They depart from the faith.

Mathew 24:12-13

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Your not addressing the word.

I agree with daniels prophecy and other prophecies in the bible....but when you use the concept of departed...rather than falling away...it shows the rapture will occur prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

Paul says right there in 2 thes. That we will not be gathered to christ at his coming unless there is a falling away first.
If you want to call the falling away a departure, OK. You still won't be gather to christ at his coming till after the departure.

Paul doesnt say anything about a rapture there.

2 the 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It's best to keep the verse in context to understand it.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus spoke of that time period in israel as well. Alot of people don't endure till the end. They depart from the faith.

Mathew 24:12-13

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

You're speaking of the trib...time of Jacobs trouble for the Jews. Not the church as thy have been removed.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You're speaking of the trib...time of Jacobs trouble for the Jews. Not the church as thy have been removed.

Church hasn't gone anywhere.
You were deceived.Paul warned you.

 

[CrowCross]

Paul says right there in 2 thes. That we will not be gathered to christ at his coming unless there is a falling away first.
If you want to call the falling away a departure, OK. You still won't be gather to christ at his coming till after the departure.

Paul doesnt say anything about a rapture there.

2 the 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It's best to keep the verse in context to understand it.

The gathering of the church at Christ coming is the church departing from the world at the rapture.

That's extremely good news.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The gathering of the church at Christ coming is the church departing from the world at the rapture.

That's extremely good news.

And Paul says that before we are gatherd to christ at his coming, a departure will take place prior to his coming and the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin and the departure takes place before our gathering to christ at his coming.
That coresponds to Daniels prophecy.

I'm not sure what your afraid of.
Do you believe you will precede those that sleep in the dust in Daniel 12:2 ?

 

[CrowCross]

And Paul says that before we are gatherd to christ at his coming, a departure will take place prior to his coming and the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin and the departure takes place before our gathering to christ at his coming.
That coresponds to Daniels prophecy.

I'm not sure what your afraid of.
Do you believe you will precede those that sleep in the dust in Daniel 12:2 ?

Paul starts his second letter by reviewing his first letter...which was about the rapture.
There was a false letter circulating that the trib has already started.
Paul speaks of the gathering together at Jesus' coming....that is the rapture. Paul continues to say the departure...of the church...will happen prior to the antichrist being revealed and the trib starting....the departure is yet another way of describing the rapture.

Paul was saying, you're still here as you haven't been gathered together as Christ has not come yet..you haven't been raptured...you have not departed...the anti-christ hasn't been revealed..the trib hasn't started as the false letter said it has.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Paul starts his second letter by reviewing his first letter...which was about the rapture.
There was a false letter circulating that the trib has already started.
Paul speaks of the gathering together at Jesus' coming....that is the rapture. Paul continues to say the departure...of the church...will happen prior to the antichrist being revealed and the trib starting....the departure is yet another way of describing the rapture.

Paul was saying, you're still here as you haven't been gathered together as Christ has not come yet..you haven't been raptured...you have not departed...the anti-christ hasn't been revealed..the trib hasn't started as the false letter said it has.

2 the 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


According to Paul.
First there is a rebellion, departure, falling away.
Then we will be gatherd to christ at his coming.

AAnd this coresponds to Daniels prophecy that the man of sin would die before the resurection.

Do you believe you will precede those who are dead?

Daniel 11:45-12:2

He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

There's is no pre trib rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

2 the 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


According to Paul.
First there is a rebellion, departure, falling away.
Then we will be gatherd to christ at his coming.

AAnd this coresponds to Daniels prophecy that the man of sin would die before the resurection.

Do you believe you will precede those who are dead?

Daniel 11:45-12:2

He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

There's is no pre trib rapture.

I fully know your interpretation...the post is about the accuracy of the word you have translated as "rebellion".

The question is, is "departure" used by the 1599 Geneva bible meaning physically removed a better word.

There is a pre-trib rapture. Jesus told the Philadelphia church in a letter for them as well as for us..... I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

That testing is the 7 year tribulation that the church will be kept from. The church will depart from the earth in an event called the rapture prior to the anti-christ being revealed and the trib beginning.

The table is pretty much set...and unless for some reason God tarries it is soon.

 

[CrowCross]

According to Paul.
First there is a rebellion, departure, falling away.
Then we will be gatherd to christ at his coming.

If the church goes through this rebellion, departure, falling away....then it makes sense there will be no church to rapture as they all will be no longer in the faith.

The gathering and subsequent departure is the church physically being removed prior to the trib.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

If the church goes through this rebellion, departure, falling away....then it makes sense there will be no church to rapture as they all will be no longer in the faith.

The gathering and subsequent departure is the church physically being removed prior to the trib.

Who says this has anything to do with the world outside of Israel?
My goodness, are you so fearful that someone is going to get beaten in a synagogue in Israel that you believe you would fall away?

Then again, if you lived inside of Israel when this takes place, you could just leave when the woman does.

Revelation 12:14
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

And for some reason you believe you need to be raptured or you would fall away.

 

[CrowCross]

Who says this has anything to do with the world outside of Israel?
My goodness, are you so fearful that someone is going to get beaten in a synagogue in Israel that you believe you would fall away?

Then again, if you lived inside of Israel when this takes place, you could just leave when the woman does.

Revelation 12:14
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

And for some reason you believe you need to be raptured or you would fall away.

No, I believe I will be raptured because the bible says so...I need no other reason.

I also know that Daniels 70th week or Time of Jacobs Trouble is not for the church.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No, I believe I will be raptured because the bible says so...I need no other reason.

I also know that Daniels 70th week or Time of Jacobs Trouble is not for the church.

No, the Bible doesn't say you will be raptured before the tribulation in Israel.
All Paul said is there will be a falling away or departure before Christ comes.


Below Christ is talking about the falling away.

Mathew 24:11-13
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


You say you won't be here till the end so I guess you won't be saved.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No, I believe I will be raptured because the bible says so...I need no other reason.

I also know that Daniels 70th week or Time of Jacobs Trouble is not for the church.

Or rather you openly say that you will depart or fall away. Whichever, you will not be part of the church because you could not endure till the end.

 

[CrowCross]

No, the Bible doesn't say you will be raptured before the tribulation in Israel.
All Paul said is there will be a falling away or departure before Christ comes.


Below Christ is talking about the falling away.

Mathew 24:11-13
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


You say you won't be here till the end so I guess you won't be saved.

This verse id for the Jews in the tribulation...

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Endures what? Till the end of what? Saved from what?

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to discuss the word used.
Some theorize the RCC changed the word to apostacy or rebellion and it has been carried through to todays modern translations so they could show that it was the protestant reformation who broke away from the RCC church were these predicted apostates. Clever.