CrowCross
Well-known member
The church won't be here to endure to the end as they will not be part of the trib...as Jesus told the church of Philly and sunsequently the church around prior to the tribulation.
2 Thes 2:3
- Thread starter CrowCross
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Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
According to Paul, the son of perdition is killed at Christ's coming. That doesn't take place till after the tribulation.
2 thes 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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CrowCross
Well-known member
According to your interpretation the antichrist (lawless one) won't be revealed until the end of the tribulation. Do you see the problem?
I see it as the anti-christ being destroyed at the actual second coming at the end of the tribulation. Paul says the anti-christ will be revealed.....then says....shall be destroyed. Paul doesn't say when. But you now have to get around the anti-christ being reveled at the end of the trib.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Paul says the son of perdition will be destroyed at christ coming.
2 thes 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Daniel also says when he shall die.
Daniel 11:45
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
Which just so happens to be when the dead in christ rise.
Daniel 12:1-2
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
But like you said. Your going to fall away so you don't need to worry about any of this. This is the church coming out of their graves.
It's a good thing to be resurrected by Christ at his coming.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Your interpretation says the anti-christ won't be revealed until Christ coming when at that time he will be destroyed. Your theology doesn't seem to give the anti-christ time to go to the temple.
You need to rethink your position.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Paul said the son of perdition will be revelealed at Christ's coming.That's Paul's interpretation.
2 thes 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Personally, I believe I know who he is already but I will wait and see if he gives Israel an army first. That's when I will know for sure.
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Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
PS
And my interpretation is, the people who know their God will know who the son of perdition is 3.5 years before Christ comes. Not when Christ comes. But I do believe Paul was right when he said the that man of sin would be destroyed at Christ's coming.
This verse below is when I would know who the man of sin is.
Daniel 11:32
With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
Since you do not believe you would be here when the king of the north gives Israel an army, you will not recognize him at this time.You would not recognize him till Christ comes and destroys him if even then.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Revelation. 3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
You claim you have endured patiently and will not suffer tribulation. If that's the case, then the message is not for you. It is addressing those in tribulation and endure patiently in Christ.People like John.
Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
John is addressing those who are in tribulation as John was in prison when he wrote this.
A labor camp for convicts . He was sentenced there for preaching the gospel.
Don't just assume every message in the bible is talking about you.Nor does it say anyone would be raptured. John continued his sentence till he was set free after the death of Domitian.
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Yahchristian
Well-known member
Physical.
That Bible passage correlates "a falling away" with "he be taken out of the way".
Both occur right before "that man of sin be revealed" which correlates with "that Wicked be revealed".
2 Thessalonians 2:3-8... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Yahchristian
Well-known member
The Reformers would have understood that verse to be read as follows...
2 Thessalonians 2:3-8... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come an end to the Roman Emperors first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until the Roman Emperors be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
They believed "he" (a personal pronoun) referred to the Roman Emperors (a person) rather than the Rapture (an event).
CrowCross
Well-known member
This point can add to the pre-trib rapture where apostate indicates the rapture of the church as talked about in the OP.
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed,
Who is the restrainer? My top two candidates are either the Holy Spirit or the Church. Either way the Church is gone. If it is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is removed the Church goes with the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit indwells the Church.
leonard03782
Well-known member
Why can't it have a dual meaning?
CrowCross
Well-known member
Even if it does have a dual meaning...the rapture which would be one of those meanings occurs prior to the trip.
I don't disagree that some of the church will loose its witness like some of the 7 churches who Jesus wrote to in Rev did.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Why are you so fearful of a tribulation that takes place in Israel that you think that you need to be taken out of the world so you wouldn't fall away?
What you believe makes no sense whatsoever.
While the saints in Israel are being persecuted, you will still be telling everyone your going to be raptured before they are persecuted.
CrowCross
Well-known member
I'm not fearful...why do you say that if I know there is a pre-trib rapture of the church I'm fearful?
It's what the Bible teaches...which is why I believe it.
The entire world will be judged...Israel be the main event.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
The tribulation which Jesus said takes place before his coming is only in Israel.
And Jesus gathers his church after the tribulation. Why do you believe myths and fairytale but not the truth as Christ teaches? Who deceived you into believing Christ comes and gathers his elect before the tribulation?
Mathew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
You can't get any clearer. Jesus's assembly is gathered after the tribulation.
CrowCross
Well-known member
The 4 horseman alone..show that to be incorrect. Other events in Rev prove that to be wrong.
I've noticed when people employ this tactic....demonizing...others, they always turn out to be skimpy on the truth.
Pretib rapture and post trib events have different trumpet blowers.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
The four housrmen have power over the fourth part of the earth. They don't even have power over the entire earth but they have nothing to do with the tribulation.
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Fact is Jesus said he would come after the tribulation, and even though you read what he said, you still don't believe him.
So who was it that decieved you?Paul warned you not to let any man decieve you.
Mathew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Jesus talked about the tribulation in Israel throughout the gospel. He tells his elect what they shall do and what will happen to them. He talks about the falling away and about those who remain faithful till the end. He talks about the reward of those who are persecuted and the wrath of God be falling those who persecute them. He even talks about how God will feed those who work for him during the tribulation. He covers about all the bases including as I have shown you, when he shall come.
It's all in the gospel.
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CrowCross
Well-known member
Then we should remove those 4 seals from the book of Revelation.
