2nd Peter and Jude, The Angels that Sinned

Stephen

Active member
Warning: This is not for those with a short attention span.

The books of 2nd Peter and Jude are intricately linked, with some even calling the book of Jude "3rd Peter". And as such, these books should not be understood in isolation but understood together with each book informing the meaning of the other.

As a former Baptist, some Christadelphian doctrines on the surface fly in the face of certain passages of the bible, yet reconcile other passages that were problematic to me when I was a Baptist. And this is how I reconciled a few of the problematic phrases in 2nd Peter and Jude. While these passages were also problematic to me as a Baptist, since I grew up as one, it didn't seem important to reconcile. But as somebody consciously choosing to change from one set of beliefs to the other, reconciling problematic passages takes on a higher priority.

The guiding biblical principle to help me reconcile the scriptures is that sin brings forth death. If there is a passage in the bible that appears to contradict this guiding principle, then it is not the principle that is wrong, but rather it is the understanding of the passage that should be examined.

In these two books, there are a few of these passages:
  • Angels making railing accusations.
  • Angels that sinned
  • Slandering celestial beings
  • The Body of Moses
  • Tartarus
  • Chained in Darkness

The core of the data presented in this thread is from the following sources
  • "Angels that Sinned, Slandering Celestial Beings" by Stephen Cox
  • "Not Giving Heed to Jewish Fables (Part 4 and 5)" Christadelphian Tidings magazine November 2000 and January 2001
  • The Book of Enoch - Translated by R.H. Charles (1917)

All of these sources are online. I read through a bunch more, even a bunch of papers on Academia.edu, but these were all quite unsatisfactory. Several influenced the breakout of the books shown below, but I wouldn't know which ones they were.

Without further adieu, let's get to the meat of the books





Timeline of the book

2nd Peter is Written. False Prophets Foretold (2 Peter 2:1)
\/​
Peter Dies (2 Peter 1:14). False Prophets creep in
\/​
Jude is written. False prophets have crept in (Jude 1:4)
\/​
Destruction of the temple (2 Peter 3:7)




Evidence of the linkage of the books can be found in the outline of the books. They cover the same topics in the same order, and later one quotes the other.

Topic2nd PeterJude
Introduction2nd Peter 1:1-2Jude 1:1-2
Christian Life2nd Peter 1:3-11--
Why Written2nd Peter 1:12-15Jude 1:3
Authority of the Message2nd Peter 1:16-21---
False Prophets2nd Peter 2:1-3Jude 1:4
1st Rebellion2nd Peter 2:4Jude 1:6
2nd Rebellion2nd Peter 2:5Jude 1:5
3rd Rebellion2nd Peter 2:6-8Jude 1:7
Salvation2nd Peter 2:9---
Abuse of Celestial Beings2nd Peter 2:10-11Jude 1:8-9
Consequences2nd Peter 2:12-16Jude 1:10-11
Rebukes from Enoch2nd Peter 2:17Jude 1:12-13
Contradictions to the Bible found in Enoch---Jude 1:14-15
Murmurers Wanting to go Back2nd Peter 2:18-22Jude 1:16
Reminder of Previous Teaching2nd Peter 3:1-4Jude 1:17-19
World Destroyed by Water2nd Peter 3:5-7---
Patience2nd Peter 3:8-9Jude 1:20-21
World Destroyed by Fire/The New Creation2nd Peter 3:10-13---
Exhortation to be Spotless2nd Peter 3:14Jude 1:22-23
Authority of Paul2nd Peter 3:15-16---
Don't Stumble2nd Peter 3:17Jude 1:24
Closing2nd Peter 3:18Jude 1:25
 
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Stephen

Active member
Introduction

2nd Peter 1:1-2Jude 1:1-2
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

If you believe that James and Jude are the brothers of Christ….. Then:
  • Peter's authority comes from him being an apostle.
  • Jude's authority comes from being a brother to James. James was the head of the Jerusalem church but had already been martyred by this time. James is the one who made the unilateral ruling that the church in Jerusalem and all other churches were to accept Gentiles into the church without circumcision (Acts 15:19)

James and Jude were both (half) brothers to Jesus and both initially rejected Jesus at Nazareth (Matthew 4, Mark 6, Luke 6). However, by Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus.

Peter uses the word “granted” which carries the essence of “received by lot” in the definition of the word. The implication is hard to miss, Christians have won the lottery (rather than earning it).

But notice the difference in tone, Peter whishes Grace, but Jude wishes Mercy.




Christian Life

2nd Peter 1:3-11Jude
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jude_is_silent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Peter's exhortation is that because Christians have won the lottery, they should choose to be better people and failure to do these things means that you are blind. This is completely backwards from the natural way of thinking. We aren't command to work to win the lottery, but rather we have won the lottery therefore we should work. And notice that not one of the works listed in Peter's description of the Christian life gratify the flesh.

Why does Peter bring this up to this audience? They are likely going to face a challenge along these lines in the very near future. And Peter hits hard on the ultimate problem that will have occurred by the time Jude is written in verse 9. They will forget what has been done for them.

Christadelphians often get accuse of having "a works based salvation". This is an incorrect characterization. We are simply accept and believe Peter's teaching on the relationship to works to our walk in faith.




Why Written

2nd Peter 1:12-15Jude 1:3
12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

Peter has no doubts about the faith of the church he is writing to, yet he is writing to them to prepare them for the wolves that are about to enter. He promises that after his departure they will always remember these things because he is sending a testimony. The testimony is most likely referring to the books of John or Mark:
  • -Mark, because Mark and Peter were traveling companions and they seem to have a special connection
  • -John because it was completed after the book of Peter and is unique in that it predicts Peter's death (John 21:15-19) which Peter seems to allude to with the words "after my departure".

Jude wanted to write a letter urging people to contend for the faith, but instead he found it necessary to write a completely different letter. He is the one contending for the faith to the church he is writing to.
 
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Stephen

Active member
Authority of the Message

2nd Peter 1:16-21Jude
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jude_is_silent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Peter asserts that Christians do not follow cleverly devised stories. Why would he state such a thing? The fact that he stated such a thing indicates clever stories are going to be in competition with the gospel. Peter must have been anticipating a challenge to the authority of the Apostles.

Furthermore, Peter feels the need to assert that the prophetic message is something completely reliable. This would imply that a potentially less reliable prophetic message is at work. Peter reminds his audience in verses 20-21 that prophecy is from God, and the prophets don't get to say what they want. For example, Balaam wanted to, but utterly failed (Numbers 22-24).

The inclusion of references to the mountain give a strong hint as to what clever story he is talking about. He specifically goes to the event on the mountain where the voice from heaven said "This is my dear Son, in whom I am delighted" (Matt 17:1-8). In contrast Enoch was taken to a mystical mountain. . .

Enoch 17:1 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire, 2 and, when they wished, they appeared as men. And they brought me to the place of darkness, and to a mountain the point of whose summit reached to heaven. And I saw the places of the luminaries and the treasuries of the stars and of the thunder and in the uttermost depths, where were 4 a fiery bow and arrows and their quiver, and a fiery sword and all the lightnings. And they took

Peter is drawing a contrast between the two available pieces of evidence. He was on a real literal mountain with witnesses and heard the voice of God, and has the holy spirit gifts to testify for him. The book of Enoch talks about him being on an an unverifiable mountain.

Peter's message is clear, he has the reliable word of prophecy. The book of Enoch does not.

Jude is silent on this matter.




False Prophets

2nd Peter 2:1-3Jude 1:4
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Comparing Peter’s words to Jude's words, we can see that Peter's prophecy has come true. Peter predicts they will come in, and Jude says they have arrived. Paul has Timothy fighting the same battle at Ephesus (1 Tim 1:1-4).

Peter introduces the idea of a fabricated story. As has already been discussed, one of the fabricated stories is the book of Enoch. And when we get to the next verse, we encounter a fabricated story.
 
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Stephen

Active member
1st Rebellion

2nd Peter 2:4Jude 1:6
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (Tartarus), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Note
  • I've flipped Jude 1:5 and Jude 1:6 as verse 6 corresponds better to 2 Peter 2:4.
  • The word "hell" here is "Tartarus" (strong's 5020) and this is the only time it is used in the bible.

Peter is not asserting the canonicity of the book of Enoch and the concept of angels sinning, only making a logical argument from the book (Enoch 10:1-4). Let's understand the argument:
  • If the "angels sinning" part of the Book of Enoch is true, then the angels having been chained in Tartarus is true.
  • If they are chained in Tartarus, then you don't have to worry about them (2 Peter 2:9).

If your doctrine is that there are these so called "fallen angels" and they can possess people, 2 Peter 4 directly contradicts that doctrine by saying they are all locked up. However Peter is using a hypothetical. I contend that he doesn't believe "fallen angels" exist at all.

Jude doesn’t use the hypothetical language. Why? Peter is writing his letter to a unified group of tried and true believers and reminds them of their salvation and walk in Christ. Jude on the other hand is writing to a mixed bag (the beloved v1, those who crept in v4, and the doubters v22), and is intentionally shielding the path to salvation. This is not a new feature of scripture. When Jesus was speaking to a mixed bag, or even to those almost purely adversarial to him, Jesus taught in parables. And the point of a parable is simple: to reveal to some and conceal from others (Mark 4:10-12).

The idea of angels being chained is straight out of the book of Enoch, the angels are chained in darkness per Enoch 10

Enoch 10:1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening

And the concept of "Tartarus" is brought up. A place that doesn't exist anywhere else in the bible. It is another reference to Enoch where the angels overlook Tartarus in Enoch 20, and the angels will be imprisoned for ever in Enoch 21.

Enoch 20:1,2 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4,5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. Michael, one . . .
Enoch 21:9'How fearful is the place and how terrible to alook upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright' And 10 I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

This place is not in the bible, Peter is simply using it to make his point.




2nd Rebellion

2nd Peter 2:5Jude 1:5
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe

Peter emphasizes salvation in the face of destruction. Jude emphasizes destruction in the face of salvation.

Peter continues the logical argument using the Old Testament event of Noah (Genesis 6-8). He is giving hope to the believers that God will separate the sheep from the wolves. He emphasizes those who were saved, Noah, his wife, his 3 sons, and their wives. Since this letter is written to a church whom the wolves were going to infiltrate, this is important.

Jude brings up the exodus from Egypt and reminds his audience that they all died in the wilderness due to their lack of faith. He doesn't mention the two that made it (Joshua and Caleb).




3rd Rebellion

2nd Peter 2:6-8Jude 1:7
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Again, Peter emphasizes salvation in the face of destruction. Jude emphasizes destruction in the face of salvation.

Peter reminds people that Lot and his daughters were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude only mentions those who were destroyed.
 
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Stephen

Active member
Salvation

2nd Peter 2:9Jude
9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jude_is_silent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Note that Peter is making a logical argument, If A then B.
  • If God didn’t spare the angels, but spared the world
  • If God destroyed the world, but spared Noah
  • If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but spared lot.

  • Then God knows how to spare believers.

Peter uses three situations to make his case, 2 from scripture (Sodom and Noah's flood), and on hypothetical (the angels that sinned).

Jude is silent regarding salvation in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rebellions. He only emphasizes destruction.




Abuse of Celestial Beings

2nd Peter 2:10-11Jude 1:8-9
10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings;
11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord.
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Think about Peter’s comments. They are a precise and specific accusation about a future event. Since Christians are to partake in the divine nature and be like angels (Matthew 22:23-33) the implication is that resurrected and glorified saints are prone to sin, and our death, burial, resurrection, and glorification did nothing to solve our sin problem. According to the foundational principles of the bible, sin leads to death, then the resurrected and glorified saints are therefore once again subject to death.

The Abuse of Celestial beings Peter is talking about is in Enoch 7, where the book of Enoch slanders the angels by saying they fornicated with human women:

Enoch 7:1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. . . .

Peter calls this sort of thing bold and arrogant. And he further makes the point that the angels won't do such things to you. They don't stand before God and accuse you, how foolish, arrogant, and ungodly do you have to be to accuse them and claim it is scripture?

Jude brings up a scriptural proof that angels don’t accuse by citing Zechariah/Ezra. He surveys the whole bible and can't find any instances of angels accusing anybody, and the closest he can find of it is when the angel simply said “The Lord rebuke you”. The angel didn’t accuse, rather the angel delivered the judgment.

You can find the "Railing Accusation" in Ezra 4

Ezra 4:8 Rehum the commanding officer and Shimshai the secretary wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king as follows:. . . 11 (This is a copy of the letter they sent him.) To King Artaxerxes, From your servants in Trans-Euphrates: 12 The king should know that the people who came up to us from you have gone to Jerusalem and are rebuilding that rebellious and wicked city. They are restoring the walls and repairing the foundations. . .

And you can read the rebuke in Zechariah 3

Zechariah 3:1 Next I saw Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, with Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 3:2 The Lord said to Satan, “May the Lord rebuke you, Satan! May the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Isn’t this man like a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

This also explains what the mysterious phrase "body of Moses" means. It is the Jews in the land after the exile.

Peter and Jude are contradicting Enoch 9:1-11 where one group of angels accuses another group of angels. Angels never accused anybody, least of all other angels.




Consequences

2nd Peter 2:12-16Jude 1:10-11
12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. 13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

This is very straightforward. If you are so devoid of connection with God that you would slander angels, then how despicable are you?

Jude mentions three specific scriptural events, all three men were warned, and all three were punished:

  • Cain failed to listen when God corrected him. He doubled down and killed his brother.
  • Balaam was a prophet who was warned, but went his own way for money and counseled Balak as to how to destroy Israel.
  • Korah was saved from Egypt, but later destroyed in the desert.

Jude makes no mention of the warning, only the destruction.
 
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Stephen

Active member
Rebukes from Enoch

2nd Peter 2:17Jude 1:12-13
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Peter and Jude rebuke these false teachers by contrasting them the righteous from the text they are spouting. These men are being judged from the book they preach. These are all references or allusions to the book of Enoch.

Springs without Water

Enoch 48:1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was inexhaustible

Mists driven by a storm - waterless clouds

Enoch 100: 10 And now, know ye that from the angels He will inquire as to your deeds in heaven, from the sun and from the moon and from the stars in reference to your sins because upon the earth ye execute 11 judgement on the righteous. And He will summon to testify against you every cloud and mist and dew and rain; for they shall all be withheld because of you from descending upon you, and they 12 shall be mindful of your sins.

Fruitless Trees

Enoch 80:2 And in the days of the sinners the years shall be shortened, And their seed shall be tardy on their lands and fields, And all things on the earth shall alter, And shall not appear in their time: And the rain shall be kept back And the heaven shall withhold (it). 3 And in those times the fruits of the earth shall be backward, And shall not grow in their time, And the fruits of the trees shall be withheld in their time.

Wayward Stars

Enoch 18...I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.




Contradictions to the Bible found in Enoch

2nd PeterJude 1:14-15
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Peter is Silent. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Here Jude goes further to identify the book of Enoch. He makes two citations from the book and shows how they are false.

Enoch is the sixth from Adam (1 Chronicles 1:1) and Jude, brother of Jesus knows this. However Jude quotes where Enoch writes "the seventh from Adam" (Enoch 60:8) to point out the factual error. Is this error in Enoch an inspired error or not?

Enoch 60:8. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Dûidâin, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather (Enoch) was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first man whom the Lord of Spirits created.

In addition he cites Enoch 1:9, which sounds a lot like Deut 32:2-3, but is not.

Enoch 1:9Deut 32:2-3
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.2 …. He appeared in splendor from Mount Paran, and came forth with ten thousand holy ones. With his right hand he gave a fiery law to them. And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him

This passage is about executing judgment on "all flesh", but nowhere in the book is "flesh" judged. This is a book about the angels and their failings.




Murmurers Wanting to go Back

2nd Peter 2:18-22Jude 1:16
18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”16 These people are grumblers and fault-finders who go wherever their desires lead them, and they give bombastic speeches, enchanting folks for their own gain.

The word "grumblers" in Jude is "murmurers" which harkens back to Sinai where the people wishing to return to slavery in Egypt were complaining. Peter is repeatedly declaring that people who promote the things in the book of Enoch are simply returning to the slavery of their old beliefs.
 
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Stephen

Active member
Reminder of Previous Teaching

2nd Peter 3:1-4Jude 1:17-19
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation”17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Peter and Jude are putting the apostles on the same level as Isaiah, Zechariah, Hosea, Daniel, etc... To the Jewish audience, this is new and important. To us, 1700 years later, we accept it. This is another indicator that the apostles were expecting a challenge to their authority.

What Peter is doing is calling to mind that the worship of God didn’t begin with Moses or the second Temple. The People God choses to worship him has changed over the ages, and changed radically and without notice. Further, God uses what was at hand to prune the vine. In Noah's case it was a flood. In the case of the 1st temple, the Babylonians were God's chosen instrument. And in 70 AD, the Romans were used. The true worship of God was about to pass from the temple to Christians. An even more bitter pill is that these Christians are going to be primarily gentiles.

Peter is writing near the end of the 40 year period between the death/resurrection of Christ and the end of the sacrificial system. The Jewish mockers and scoffers wondering when Jesus would return were probably unbearable. Some initial converts were going back to Judaism (Read the whole book of Hebrews but around 10:19-39 specifically).

Trivia point: Jude quoting Peter is the only quotation of a New Testament letter in another letter.




World Destroyed by Water

2nd Peter 3:5-7Jude
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jude doesn't mention the flood.. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Peter is reminding his audience that in the times of Noah, everybody believed things would go on until the flood came and it was too late. Likewise, in the last days of the temple, everything would go on fine until that day when it was to be destroyed.




Patience

2nd Peter 3:8-9Jude 1:20-21
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Peter, in his positive letter is reminding everybody that God is patient and wanting all to repent, and your lifetime is really not that long of a wait in God's eyes.

However, Jude is silent about God's patience. But rather focuses on the patience of the believer and asking them to stay with it for the sake of those who doubt. And those are the people Jude is trying to save and those are the people whom the Christians are to endure the false teachers for.




World Destroyed by Fire/The New Creation

2nd Peter 3:10-13Jude
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jude is Silent. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Peter talks about the heaven and earth as then constituted, i.e. the Mosaic system of sacrificial worship, and he reminds believers that the temple then standing is not important, but rather we look for the new creation.




Exhortation to be Spotless

2nd Peter 3:14Jude 1:22-23
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,….22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Peter’s viewpoint is that judgement is coming and the Lord’s patience means salvation. Therefore be found spotless, blameless, and at peace with God.

Jude’s viewpoint, is that since you are stained, you should hate it and you should endeavor to save others.




Authority of Paul

2nd Peter 3:15-16Jude
15….just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jude is silent. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Peter here elevates Paul to an apostolic level. He is expecting a challenge to apostolic authority and wants to make sure his audience understands before entering a period of trial.

There are groups that did reject Paul, such as the Ebionites.




Don't Stumble

2nd Peter 3:17Jude 1:24
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

Peter tells you that you have been forewarned that trouble is coming.

Jude is telling a people in the midst of trouble to keep themselves together.




Closing

2nd Peter 3:18Jude 1:25
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

In the closing remarks, Peter is emphasizing grace and knowledge, Jude is emphasizing glory, majesty, power, and authority.
 
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Buzzard

Member
Warning: This is not for those with a short attention span.
Nor is it for those that have not a firm Foundation in Moses
and hewed by the Prophets
The books of 2nd Peter and Jude are intricately linked, with some even calling the book of Jude "3rd Peter". And as such, these books should not be understood in isolation but understood together with each book informing the meaning of the other.







Timeline of the book

2nd Peter is Written. False Prophets Foretold (2 Peter 2:1)
\/​
Peter Dies (2 Peter 1:14). False Prophets creep in
\/​
Jude is written. False prophets have crept in (Jude 1:4)
\/​
Destruction of the temple (2 Peter 3:7)





Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this,
how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not.

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts;
and their mouth speaketh great swelling words,
having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain,
and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward,
and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jude mentions three specific scriptural events, all three men were warned, and all three were punished:

  • Cain failed to listen when God corrected him. He doubled down and killed his brother.
  • Balaam was a prophet who was warned, but went his own way for money and counseled Balak as to how to destroy Israel.
  • Korah was saved from Egypt, but later destroyed in the desert.
Now you know how The world got the Papacy and the Chair of St. Peter
 

Buzzard

Member
I am going to reumber the 3 you gave

  • Cain failed to listen when God corrected him. He doubled down and killed his brother.

  • Korah was saved from Egypt, but later destroyed in the desert.
  • Balaam was a prophet who was warned, but went his own way for money and counseled Balak as to how to destroy Israel.
Now you know how The world got the Papacy and the Chair of St. Peter
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings Stephen,
10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings;
The Abuse of Celestial beings Peter is talking about is in Enoch 7, where the book of Enoch slanders the angels by saying they fornicated with human women:
Enoch 7:1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. . . .
I question your reliance on the NIV for 2 Peter 2:10 as all other translations do not have “celestial beings” but “authority”. I doubt that this is referring to the Book of Enoch as you suggest. Korah spoke evil of those in authority, that is, Moses and Aaron. Has the present “Book of Enoch” been verified or accepted as the same as what Jude refers to in Jude 14-15, or is it a forgery? I am possibly a bit concerned about the three “sources” that you are using mentioned in the OP, but I would need to examine these. The lesson from Zechariah 3 does not depend on this view from the Book of Enoch. I agree that Jude is quoting Zechariah 3:2 and that this explains "the body of Moses", nothing to do with Moses'body at the time of burial as some conjecture. When I spend more time on this, I would like to see if you deducted this yourself, or relied on one of the three sources for the ideas surrounding Enoch 7:1.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Stephen

Active member
Greetings Stephen,


I question your reliance on the NIV for 2 Peter 2:10 as all other translations do not have “celestial beings” but “authority”. I doubt that this is referring to the Book of Enoch as you suggest. Korah spoke evil of those in authority, that is, Moses and Aaron. Has the present “Book of Enoch” been verified or accepted as the same as what Jude refers to in Jude 14-15, or is it a forgery? I am possibly a bit concerned about the three “sources” that you are using mentioned in the OP, but I would need to examine these.

H Trevor,

2 Peter 2:10 has a wide array (2 Peter 2:10) and uses the greek word "doxas" ("glorious ones") which is more than "authority", but ambiguous as to what it could mean.

I had once agreed with your position regarding Korah, but became more and more unsatisfied with it over time. It didn't fit.

As to the Enoch quotes in Jude 14-15, I don't think I've ever seen that challenged.



The lesson from Zechariah 3 does not depend on this view from the Book of Enoch. I agree that Jude is quoting Zechariah 3:2 and that this explains "the body of Moses", nothing to do with Moses' body at the time of burial as some conjecture. When I spend more time on this, I would like to see if you deducted this yourself, or relied on one of the three sources for the ideas surrounding Enoch 7:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

Bro Stephen Cox (the first 2 sources) opened the door, and provided alot of the meat. I've picked up and carried on from where he left off simply to flesh things out in my own mind.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again Stephen,
2 Peter 2:10 has a wide array (2 Peter 2:10) and uses the greek word "doxas" ("glorious ones") which is more than "authority", but ambiguous as to what it could mean.
I had once agreed with your position regarding Korah, but became more and more unsatisfied with it over time. It didn't fit.
I have had a brief browse of the pamphlet by Steven Cox, but have not been able to access the Magazine articles. I have copies of the Magazines from 2007, but do not seem to be able to access any earlier. I still find his overall perspective strange and obscure. I do not think the issue at hand was the Book of Enoch. The issue was the challenge that the faithful of Jude’s time were facing with the rise of factions which were opposed to the Apostolic teachings and practice. My understanding of Jude’s quoting the example from Zechariah 3:2 is that Joshua waited patiently for God to act and deliver in the face of the Samaritan opposition. The Samaritans were successful at first, but by the time of the vision God was going to favour the prayer and work of Joshua, and the Temple work would proceed. The vision of Zechariah 3 had its fulfilment in Joshua’s day, but it ultimately speaks of the death, resurrection and glorification of Jesus. Despite the opposition that Jesus faced, the vision taught that he would be vindicated, and this has happened as he is now exalted to the right hand of God. The same principle was also now applicable in Jude’s day, and Jude was encouraging the faithful to endure opposition, and direct their attention to God for care and deliverance.
As to the Enoch quotes in Jude 14-15, I don't think I've ever seen that challenged.
I am a bit confused here. I gained the impression that you and Steven Cox disagreed with the Book of Enoch, but here in Jude 14-15, Jude seemed to endorse what Enoch prophesied. I considered this to prove that the so-called available “Book of Enoch” is a forgery, but that Jude either had a copy of Enoch’s prophecy, or he was inspired to repeat Enoch’s message.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Stephen

Active member
I am a bit confused here. I gained the impression that you and Steven Cox disagreed with the Book of Enoch, but here in Jude 14-15, Jude seemed to endorse what Enoch prophesied. I considered this to prove that the so-called available “Book of Enoch” is a forgery, but that Jude either had a copy of Enoch’s prophecy, or he was inspired to repeat Enoch’s message.

Kind regards
Trevor

I believe Jude is saying they will be judged out of the book that they are trying to bring into the church. I don't believe Jude is advertising it as authentic. It is more of a God giving them what they want good and hard situation, rather than the book of Enoch being authoritative.

Bro Steven has in his exposition somewhere where he say that Enoch "prophesied to them" meaning the audience is limited to those who read Enoch rather than Enoch "prophesied of them". I'm not knowledgeable enough in the Greek to say it is one or the other.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again Stephen,
I believe Jude is saying they will be judged out of the book that they are trying to bring into the church. I don't believe Jude is advertising it as authentic. It is more of a God giving them what they want good and hard situation, rather than the book of Enoch being authoritative.
I still find the whole concept convoluted and strange, and the concept of the NIV and Steven’s “celestrial beings” contrary to the overall context, and a reflection of much learning, but missing the mark. I suspect that Steven borrowed this concept and explanation from elsewhere, and did not properly assess it. I guess that Steven had to remove some aspects of the original article that he encountered, but still held on to some of the concepts presented. It does not seem to be original exposition on his part. To me it is almost replicating some aspects of what Jude is speaking about, (and which Steven almost speaks about in a convoluted way), in adopting strange teachings and developing opposition to the simple and clear teachings of the Apostles.

If you are looking for a Jude commentary amongst Christadelphian literature, the only ones that I am conscious of are on Jude by John Ullmann, and HPM in the Expositor Green Book series. These seem fairly straight forward, and both in a reasonable verse-by-verse format. I am not sure if there are electronic copies readily available if you do not have print copies, but Steve Genusa supplied pdf copies in his Christadelphian Bookshelf. I have the 2009 edition, but he has now provided a 2014 edition of his DVD.

There may be other expositions or series in The Testimony or The Christadelphian magazines, but I have not done a search for these. I have full electronic copies of The Testimony, and up to 2000 in Logos 8 and 2001 - 2015 in pdf format for The Christadelphian Magazine.

I have not read much of the American Tidings magazine. I am not sure if it allowed some marginal material in general, but I have noticed some, especially in strongly recommending some writers who have some strange concepts in some areas, but with some of their literature acceptable on other subjects. As a librarian I do not carry most of their literature.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Stephen

Active member
If you are looking for a Jude commentary amongst Christadelphian literature, the only ones that I am conscious of are on Jude by John Ullmann, and HPM in the Expositor Green Book series. These seem fairly straight forward, and both in a reasonable verse-by-verse format. I am not sure if there are electronic copies readily available if you do not have print copies, but Steve Genusa supplied pdf copies in his Christadelphian Bookshelf. I have the 2009 edition, but he has now provided a 2014 edition of his DVD.

There may be other expositions or series in The Testimony or The Christadelphian magazines, but I have not done a search for these. I have full electronic copies of The Testimony, and up to 2000 in Logos 8 and 2001 - 2015 in pdf format.

Hi Trevor,

I did go through HPM's analysis a while ago. I think it is available at christadelphianvault.com. There are also several youtube lectures by various speakers.

I couldn't reconcile the idea of Korah and Tartarus.

I have not read much of the American Tidings magazine. I am not sure if it allowed some marginal material in general, but I have noticed some, especially in strongly recommending some writers who have some strange concepts in some areas, but with some of their literature acceptable on other subjects. As a librarian I do not carry most of their literature.

I'm curious. What about this is marginal in your eyes?

This analysis reconciled several things for me.
  • The idea of angels sinning is a non-starter, yet Jude seems to be speaking of it.
  • The idea of Tartarus is a non-starter, yet Jude seems to be speaking of it.

He is either speaking against these ideas, or he is supporting these ideas. I believe he is doing the former and aligns well with Christadelphian doctrine. I cannot accept the idea that Tartarus is a real place and Korah went there.

These ideas in Jude bothered several people that I know enough for them to question the canonicity of the book.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again Stephen,
I couldn't reconcile the idea of Korah and Tartarus.
I see no problem in understanding that it is speaking concerning Korah and also the word “Tartarus” is a reasonably descriptive word to illustrate what actually happened to Korah. I do not accept the Greek concept of Tartarus. We also use the word Gehenna, and do not think of the pagan or Church view of a burning Hell, nor do we expect the unfaithful to be actually burnt in the garbage heap / valley outside Jerusalem.
I'm curious. What about this is marginal in your eyes?
I suggest that few in our worldwide community have ever heard the view that Stephen Cox presented that you have now endorsed. I also suggest that many of the brethren in the US would not have agreed or endorsed with what is presented in the pamphlet, and I assume the magazine articles are similar. So in a sense it is marginal to the generally accepted Christadelphian view.

But I consider this healthy. I suggest we need to allow for divergence of opinions, and the ability to freely express our view. We can always learn from other people’s research and meditation of the Word. I became interested in this thread because I thought you may be establishing a clear explanation of some of the difficult passages that we often need to face. But what you presented did not convince me.

I also felt the need to state that what you posted was not the generally accepted Christadelphian view on this subject. As Christadelphians, we are not clones, and we do not have to follow every minute detail or any detail for that matter that some central authority dictates. You have mentioned one source, Stephen Cox’s articles, and I have mentioned two others, and you also mentioned that you have had access to a few others, and I suggest that none of these would fully agree with each other, and none are the “official” line. One of the features of our Bible Class is that we usually have ten minutes for questions and discussion, and often some thorough discussion after the class where differing perspectives are sometimes revealed.

I was also interested in this thread in the hope that you would fully engage with forum member “Buzzard” on this subject as he has made two posts. He may be a bit reserved so far, but I assume that he is the person who advertises against the Christadelphian view on this subject on his website and in a few of his many videos. I have had brief private communication with him and with two of his associates recently and they have a different view on “the Angels that sinned” and the connection and meaning of Jude 9 and Zechariah 3:2. Possibly apart from this subject, and one or two others, we share with the particular “Buzzard” that I have encountered many similar teachings.
This analysis reconciled several things for me.
  • The idea of angels sinning is a non-starter, yet Jude seems to be speaking of it.
  • The idea of Tartarus is a non-starter, yet Jude seems to be speaking of it.
He is either speaking against these ideas, or he is supporting these ideas.
I agree with you, the Angels do not sin, and Tartarus is not a real place. I do not believe that Jude is teaching the opposite or directly or indirectly answering a wrong view of these two items. I do not accept the view that “celestrial beings” is talking about the Angels or a wrong view of the Angels, but is speaking about the faction who were denigrating those who were in positions of authority among the faithful believers.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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