4 Point Calvinists

civic

Well-known member
National Israel was elect

Where does it say they were unconditionally elected to salvation

Further where does the bible speak of particular unconditional election to salvation
No Paul says its only a remnant. Does a remnant mean every single Israelite to you ?
 

civic

Well-known member
Check the old testament

National Israel was elect
I'm referring to Paul's statement and BTW the New interprets the Old. Its why Jesus and the Apostles quoted the Old and gave us the meaning of those quotes. Jesus corrects everyone's misunderstanding on the OT especially with the Pharisees. Paul and the Author of Hebrews do the same thing in their epistles.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm referring to Paul's statement and BTW the New interprets the Old. Its why Jesus and the Apostles quoted the Old and gave us the meaning of those quotes. Jesus corrects everyone's misunderstanding on the OT especially with the Pharisees. Paul and the Author of Hebrews do the same thing in their epistles.

hope this helps !!!
First the New testament explains the old testament but it does not falsify it

Second Israel was elected to service

You are simply assuming your idea election is only to salvation
 

civic

Well-known member
First the New testament explains the old testament but it does not falsify it

Second Israel was elected to service

You are simply assuming your idea election is only to salvation
I'm not assuming since Paul uses it 6 times referring to those who are saved in conjunction with election.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1589: ἐκλογή

ἐκλογή, ἐκλογῆς, ἡ (ἐκλέγω), election, choice;
a. the act of picking out, choosing: σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς (the genitive of quality; cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; (Buttmann, 161 (140f))), equivalent to ἐκλεκτόν, namely, τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 9:15; specifically used of that act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; — ἡ κατ' ἐκλογήν προφεσις, the decree made from choice (A. V. the purpose according to election, cf. Winer's Grammar, 193 (182)), Romans 9:11 (cf. Fritzsche at the passage, p. 298ff); — particularly that by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ, Romans 11:28; κατ' ἐκλογήν χάριτος, according to an election which is due to grace, or a gracious election, Romans 11:5; with the genitive of the person elected, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10.

Romans 9:11 N-AFS
GRK: ἡ κατ' ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ
NAS: according to [His] choice would stand,
KJV: according to election might stand,
INT: the according to election purpose

Romans 11:5 N-AFS
GRK: λεῖμμα κατ' ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν
NAS: according to [God's] gracious choice.
KJV: according to the election of grace.
INT: a remnant according to election of grace there has been

Romans 11:7 N-NFS
GRK: ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ
NAS: it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained
KJV: but the election hath obtained it,
INT: but [the] elect obtained [it]

Romans 11:28 N-AFS
GRK: δὲ τὴν ἐκλογὴν ἀγαπητοὶ διὰ
NAS: but from the standpoint of [God's] choice they are beloved
KJV: as touching the election, [they are] beloved
INT: however the election beloved on account of

1 Thessalonians 1:4 N-AFS
GRK: θεοῦ τὴν ἐκλογὴν ὑμῶν
NAS: beloved by God, [His] choice of you;
KJV: beloved, your election of God.
INT: God the election of you

2 Peter 1:10 N-AFS
GRK: κλῆσιν καὶ ἐκλογὴν ποιεῖσθαι ταῦτα
NAS: about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice
KJV: calling and election sure: for
INT: calling and election to make these things
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Read post 20 and then 22. Ken answers the unconditional election question and says only some were saved, not all .

It cannot be assumed election only concerns salvation

That is why I asked election to what

National Israel was elected to service

From that election men were cuttoff

Other than that I am not sure what your point is here

Ken answers the unconditional election question and says only some were saved, not all .
 

civic

Well-known member
It cannot be assumed election only concerns salvation

That is why I asked election to what

National Israel was elected to service

From that election men were cuttoff

Other than that I am not sure what your point is here

Ken answers the unconditional election question and says only some were saved, not all .
read my last post and the scripture references that support me not your ideas.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm not assuming since Paul uses it 6 times referring to those who are saved in conjunction with election.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1589: ἐκλογή

ἐκλογή, ἐκλογῆς, ἡ (ἐκλέγω), election, choice;
a. the act of picking out, choosing: σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς (the genitive of quality; cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; (Buttmann, 161 (140f))), equivalent to ἐκλεκτόν, namely, τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 9:15; specifically used of that act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; — ἡ κατ' ἐκλογήν προφεσις, the decree made from choice (A. V. the purpose according to election, cf. Winer's Grammar, 193 (182)), Romans 9:11 (cf. Fritzsche at the passage, p. 298ff); — particularly that by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ, Romans 11:28; κατ' ἐκλογήν χάριτος, according to an election which is due to grace, or a gracious election, Romans 11:5; with the genitive of the person elected, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10.

Romans 9:11 N-AFS
GRK: ἡ κατ' ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ
NAS: according to [His] choice would stand,
KJV: according to election might stand,
INT: the according to election purpose

Refers to election to service
Romans 11:5 N-AFS
GRK: λεῖμμα κατ' ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν
NAS: according to [God's] gracious choice.
KJV: according to the election of grace.
INT: a remnant according to election of grace there has been

No unconditional election to salvation there

Concerns Gods choice to saved those that believe

Romans 9:30-32 (ESV)
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,




Romans 11:7 N-NFS
GRK: ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ
NAS: it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained
KJV: but the election hath obtained it,
INT: but [the] elect obtained [it]

Those who pursued righteousness by faith

Not some unconditionally elect

Most Israel was cuttoff because of a lack of faith

Romans 11:20-23 (ESV)
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Got to run now

Wife's doctor appt
 

civic

Well-known member
Refers to election to service


No unconditional election to salvation there

Concerns Gods choice to saved those that believe

Romans 9:30-32 (ESV)
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,






Those who pursued righteousness by faith

Not some unconditionally elect

Most Israel was cuttoff because of a lack of faith

Romans 11:20-23 (ESV)
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Got to run now

Wife's doctor appt
ok hope all goes well !
 
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