4 Reasons Romans 7 is a Pre- Christian Experience

G

guest1

Guest

Four Reasons for a Pre-Christian Experience- Schreiner​

1. The structure of the passage.

When we look at Romans 7 as a whole, we find a clear structure. This is outlined in verses 5–6:

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions operated through the law in every part of us and bore fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.

Verse 5 depicts pre-Christian experience, describing a time “when we were in the flesh,” and explains that the flesh produced “death.” Verse 6 refers to Christians in four terms: “But now,” “released,” “died” (to our old life), and “Spirit.” Virtually all commentators agree that verse 5 refers to unbelievers and verse 6 to believers. But here is the key point: Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms.

2. The Holy Spirit.

If we shake the kaleidoscope, we can look at the passage from another complementary perspective. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life.

The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.

3. The question asked in Romans 7:13.

Paul’s argument advances by the questions he asks. We’ve already seen that Romans 7:5–6 structures and forecasts the ensuing discussion. But notice the question posed in Romans 7:7: “What should we say then? Is the law sin?” The question arises because of the wording of Romans 7:5, since Paul had said that our sinful passions were aroused by the law and produced death.

So the question in Romans 7:7 naturally arises: if sinful passions were provoked by the law, is the law sinful? Paul categorically rejects such an option, arguing that the law is spiritual and good (Rom. 7:12). But sin used the law as a launching point in our lives to bring about our spiritual death.

Paul proceeds to ask another question in Romans 7:13: “Therefore, did what is good cause my death?” The “good” here is clearly the law. But notice the question asked: did the good law cause my death? The answer is then given in Romans 7:13b–25. But this is a powerful argument supporting pre-Christian experience since Paul explains how sin used the law to bring about our death. The flow of the argument fits perfectly with what Paul says about unbelievers in Romans 7:5: the law worked in our members while we were outside of Christ to separate us from God, to kill us.

4. The total defeat described in Romans 7:13–25.

Many Christians throughout history have identified with the despair and inability of the “I” in Romans 7:13–25. We read these verses and think: That’s my story; that’s my experience. Their instinct is right, but their interpretation is wrong. As Christians we are deeply aware of our continued sinfulness and the many ways we fall short of God’s will. As James says, “We all stumble in many ways” (Jas. 3:2; cf 2:10). It’s clear the word stumble here means sin. So James doesn’t say we sin occasionally, but that we all stumble and sin in many ways.

Every Christian following the Lord recognizes the continuing battle with sin that will afflict us until the day of redemption (Gal. 5:16–18). We’re already saved, but we aren’t yet all we want to or need to be. We must continue confessing our sins daily, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord’s prayer (Matt. 6:12). Sin continues to bedevil us in thought, word, and deed until the day we die.

Yet that’s not what Romans 7:13–25 is talking about. Yes, we continue to struggle with sin. Yes, we fall short every day. But Romans 7:13–25 is talking about total defeat. As Paul says in verse 14, “I am of the flesh, sold under sin.” In other words, he is describing complete and total captivity to sin.

We see the same thing again in verse 23: “But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.” Paul isn’t just talking about struggling with sin with frequent failures; he describes complete and abject defeat, being utterly enslaved to sin. The “I” is a prisoner of sin. Again and again in this passage, Paul says he wanted to obey but couldn’t; the obedience didn’t come and couldn’t come—since he was unregenerate.

The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).

Yes, we still sin, but we aren’t slaves to it anymore. As Romans 8:2 declares, “The law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.” Such freedom from sin doesn’t accord with the person described in Romans 7:13–25, since that person is still enslaved to sin. As Christians we enjoy substantial, significant, and observable (though not perfect) victory over sin in this life. Though we fail every day, we are dramatically changed by the grace of God.

Two Objections​

A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.

Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.

The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.

Final Word​

If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin.

The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way.
 
Chalcedon said:

Four Reasons for a Pre-Christian Experience- Schreiner​

1. The structure of the passage.

When we look at Romans 7 as a whole, we find a clear structure. This is outlined in verses 5–6:

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions operated through the law in every part of us and bore fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.

Verse 5 depicts pre-Christian experience, describing a time “when we were in the flesh,” and explains that the flesh produced “death.” Verse 6 refers to Christians in four terms: “But now,” “released,” “died” (to our old life), and “Spirit.” Virtually all commentators agree that verse 5 refers to unbelievers and verse 6 to believers. But here is the key point: Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms.

2. The Holy Spirit.

If we shake the kaleidoscope, we can look at the passage from another complementary perspective. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life.

The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.

3. The question asked in Romans 7:13.

Paul’s argument advances by the questions he asks. We’ve already seen that Romans 7:5–6 structures and forecasts the ensuing discussion. But notice the question posed in Romans 7:7: “What should we say then? Is the law sin?” The question arises because of the wording of Romans 7:5, since Paul had said that our sinful passions were aroused by the law and produced death.

So the question in Romans 7:7 naturally arises: if sinful passions were provoked by the law, is the law sinful? Paul categorically rejects such an option, arguing that the law is spiritual and good (Rom. 7:12). But sin used the law as a launching point in our lives to bring about our spiritual death.

Paul proceeds to ask another question in Romans 7:13: “Therefore, did what is good cause my death?” The “good” here is clearly the law. But notice the question asked: did the good law cause my death? The answer is then given in Romans 7:13b–25. But this is a powerful argument supporting pre-Christian experience since Paul explains how sin used the law to bring about our death. The flow of the argument fits perfectly with what Paul says about unbelievers in Romans 7:5: the law worked in our members while we were outside of Christ to separate us from God, to kill us.

4. The total defeat described in Romans 7:13–25.

Many Christians throughout history have identified with the despair and inability of the “I” in Romans 7:13–25. We read these verses and think: That’s my story; that’s my experience. Their instinct is right, but their interpretation is wrong. As Christians we are deeply aware of our continued sinfulness and the many ways we fall short of God’s will. As James says, “We all stumble in many ways” (Jas. 3:2; cf 2:10). It’s clear the word stumble here means sin. So James doesn’t say we sin occasionally, but that we all stumble and sin in many ways.

Every Christian following the Lord recognizes the continuing battle with sin that will afflict us until the day of redemption (Gal. 5:16–18). We’re already saved, but we aren’t yet all we want to or need to be. We must continue confessing our sins daily, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord’s prayer (Matt. 6:12). Sin continues to bedevil us in thought, word, and deed until the day we die.

Yet that’s not what Romans 7:13–25 is talking about. Yes, we continue to struggle with sin. Yes, we fall short every day. But Romans 7:13–25 is talking about total defeat. As Paul says in verse 14, “I am of the flesh, sold under sin.” In other words, he is describing complete and total captivity to sin.

We see the same thing again in verse 23: “But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.” Paul isn’t just talking about struggling with sin with frequent failures; he describes complete and abject defeat, being utterly enslaved to sin. The “I” is a prisoner of sin. Again and again in this passage, Paul says he wanted to obey but couldn’t; the obedience didn’t come and couldn’t come—since he was unregenerate.

The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).

Yes, we still sin, but we aren’t slaves to it anymore. As Romans 8:2 declares, “The law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.” Such freedom from sin doesn’t accord with the person described in Romans 7:13–25, since that person is still enslaved to sin. As Christians we enjoy substantial, significant, and observable (though not perfect) victory over sin in this life. Though we fail every day, we are dramatically changed by the grace of God.

Two Objections​

A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.

Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.

The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.

Final Word​

If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin.

The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way.
Click to expand...
Paul is contrasting the law of God and human nature, of course on the basis of his own experience; but the contrast is worked out ideally, or timelessly, as we might say, all the tenses being present; it is obvious, however, on reflection, that the experience described is essentially that of his pre-Christian days. It is the unregenerate man's experience, surviving at least in memory into regenerate days, and read with regenerate eyes.
Expositor's Greek Testament, The - Volume 2.
 

OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A TRANSFORMING RELATIONSHIP.​

In verse 6, Paul uses the same contrast that we saw in 6:22, “But now.” It points to the great change from before we met Christ to afterwards. Before we met Him, we were in the flesh, enslaved to sin, and under the condemnation and power of the law. “But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound” (7:6). If I have broken the law and am facing a prison term, but before I go to prison I die, they aren’t going to take my corpse to prison! My death released me from the power of the law. It changed everything.

Also, our death to the law freed us to be joined in marriage to the risen Christ (7:4). This implies that we have new life in Him, because Jesus doesn’t marry a corpse. We have a new relationship of love with our Bridegroom, who gave Himself on the cross to secure us as His bride. (By the way, it’s difficult as a guy to think of myself as “married” to Jesus, but think of it corporately, not individually. The biblical analogy is that the church corporately is the bride of Christ.) Our new union with Christ changes everything.

There is one thing certain about marriage: it changes you forever! Suddenly, you are not your own. You have to think about your wife before you make plans. You have to think about what pleases her. You have to take her into account in every decision that you make. You have to work at staying close in your relationship to her. But in spite of these new responsibilities, I can say with gusto that marrying Marla changed me for the good! In the same way, being joined to Jesus Christ changes everything. It gives you new responsibilities, but it transforms you decidedly for the good.

B. OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A LOVE RELATIONSHIP.​

As I said, the phrase “through the body of Christ” points to the cross, where Jesus died a horrible death to secure us as His bride. He paid the price that the law demanded for our sin. “Christ … loved the church and gave Himself up for her” (Eph. 5:25). So now we willingly submit to Him, not out of duty, but out of love.

Picture a woman married to a demanding, perfectionistic man. He’s the kind who takes a white glove and wipes it on the top of the door molding to see if it has been dusted. She lives in constant fear that she will not please him. But then (much to her relief) he dies. Sometime later, she meets a loving, kind, and caring man. They fall in love and get married. Now she still cleans the house and cooks the meals, but she does it joyfully out of love, not dutifully to meet the demands of an impossible tyrant.

The analogy breaks down, in that the law did not die. Rather, we died to it. But, we no longer have to strive in vain to meet its impossible demands as the grounds of our acceptance with God. Rather, Christ met those demands for us and we are joined to Him in love. We still live to please Him, but our whole motive has changed from duty that condemned us to love that accepts us.

C. OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A LIBERATING RELATIONSHIP.​

Before, we were bound by the law, but now we are released from its condemnation and domination (7:6). The picture is that of a prisoner who has been set free. I’ve never been in prison, but I got a feel for what it must be like when I was in boot camp. We were in captivity in every sense of the word. The Coast Guard determined our schedule, our activities, what we wore, how we looked, and what we ate. Boot camp was on an island in the Oakland Bay. From our upstairs barracks window, I could see cars stuck in rush hour traffic out on the Oakland freeway. I thought, “Those drivers are probably grumbling about the traffic, but if they only knew how free they are to be able to drive their own car wherever they want to go, they’d quit complaining!” Before Christ, we were bound by the law, but now we’re free.

D. OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A FRUITFUL RELATIONSHIP.​

The reason we are joined to Christ is so “that we might bear fruit for God” (7:4). When you compare that to 7:6, “so that we serve in newness of the Spirit,” it probably refers to the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), or “the fruit of the Light,” which is “all goodness and righteousness and truth, trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord” (Eph. 5:9-10). If you’re not bearing fruit for God, you are not fulfilling the purpose for which He saved you.

E. OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A POWERFUL RELATIONSHIP.​

The law was impotent to help us obey, but Christ gives us the Holy Spirit to indwell us and empower us to overcome sin. To be under the law is to be “in the flesh” (7:5), which has no motivation or power to overcome sin. But the Spirit enables us to put to death the deeds of the body, so that we will live (8:13; Gal. 5:16-23).

F. OUR UNION WITH CHRIST IS A HOLY RELATIONSHIP.​

I mentioned at the outset that being free from the law does not mean that we are free to disobey the moral commands of Scripture. But I mention it again as we close, because it is so often misunderstood or ignored. The word “serve” (7:6) is the same Greek word translated “enslaved to God” (6:22). So Christ frees us from the law to which we were bound, but not to do as we please. We’re freed from the law so that we can be enslaved to God in the newness of the Spirit. Being a slave of righteousness is true freedom! Bible.org

hope this helps !!!
 
fltom said:
Paul is contrasting the law of God and human nature, of course on the basis of his own experience; but the contrast is worked out ideally, or timelessly, as we might say, all the tenses being present; it is obvious, however, on reflection, that the experience described is essentially that of his pre-Christian days. It is the unregenerate man's experience, surviving at least in memory into regenerate days, and read with regenerate eyes.
Expositor's Greek Testament, The - Volume 2.
Click to expand...
Appeal to authority fallacy.

I can cite dozens of writers who make a stronger case for Paul speaking as a believer struggling against sin than you have made for Paul speaking as an unregenerate concerned about his sin which I see as oxymoronic.
 
From Got ? on practicing sin. living in sin.

In his first epistle, the apostle John deals with the assurance of our salvation: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). Since he wants his readers to “know” they have eternal life, John provides a test of faith that we can use to examine whether or not we are truly saved.

In 1 John are various descriptions of the genuine believer. If a person knows Christ and is growing in grace, he or she will be generally marked by the following traits:

1. The believer enjoys fellowship with Christ and His redeemed people (1 John 1:3).
2. The believer walks in the light, not in the darkness (1 John 1:6–7).
3. The believer admits and confesses his sin (1 John 1:8).
4. The believer obeys God’s Word (1 John 2:3–5).
5. The believer loves God rather than the world (1 John 2:15).
6. The believer’s life is characterized by “doing what is right” (1 John 2:29).
7. The believer seeks to maintain a pure life (1 John 3:3).
8. The believer sees a decreasing pattern of sin in his life (1 John 3:5–6; 5:18).
9. The believer demonstrates love for other Christians (1 John 3:14).
10. The believer “walks the walk,” versus just “talking the talk” (1 John 3:18–19).
11. The believer maintains a clear conscience (1 John 3:21).
12. The believer experiences victory in his Christian walk (1 John 5:4).

Number 8 in the list above is that the believer will evince a decreasing pattern of sin in his or her life. Here is what John says:

“No one who lives in [Christ] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6)

and

“We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them” (1 John 5:18)

Some misinterpret these verses to mean that Christians can attain sinless perfection. After all, John says that “no one who lives in Him sins” (1 John 3:6, NASB) and that “no one who is born of God sins” (5:18, NASB). Based on those verses, they reason, sin must be a thing of the past. If you commit a sin, that’s proof that you are not saved, because Christians are sinless. But that is not what John is teaching.

We know that, when John writes that believers do not continue to sin, he is not referring to sinless perfection because of what he writes elsewhere in the same epistle. To believers John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). So, we are all sinners, and we continue to struggle with sin even after we are saved. We will never know a total absence of sin until we are with the Lord in glory: “When Christ appears, we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2).

If John is not referring to sinless perfection, what does he mean that believers do not continue to sin? Very simply, he means that believers will not continue practicing sin as a way of life. There will be a difference between the old life without Christ and the new life in Christ. The thief who was characterized by his theft is a thief no more; he has a different way of life. The adulterer who was characterized by his immorality is an adulterer no more; his behavior patterns have changed. The child of God who was a former thief may still struggle with covetousness, but he no longer lives according to the pattern of stealing. The child of God who was a former adulterer may still struggle with lust, but he has broken free from the old life of immorality. “All who have this hope in [Christ] purify themselves, just as he is pure” (1 John 3:3).

The Amplified Bible brings out John’s meaning clearly:

“No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6, AMP)

and

“We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18, AMP)

The word habitually is key. A believer will struggle with sin and sometimes give in, but giving in to sin is no longer normative. As we grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord (see 2 Peter 3:18), we are being sanctified. As we are led by the Spirit, we will walk more and more in obedience to the Word of God.

If a person claims to be a Christian but lives in defiance of God’s Word, then that person is showing the world he or she is unsaved. No one who continues to live in willful sin knows God. Because continual sin is incompatible with new life in Christ, living in unrepentant homosexuality, idolatry, or falsehood is proof that no regenerative work of the Spirit has yet taken place in the heart, regardless of anyone’s claims to the contrary.

John gives us the reason why believers do not continue to sin: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God” (1 John 3:9). A genuine Christian will not “deliberately, knowingly, and habitually” sin. It’s just not in their “spiritual DNA.”
 
Howie said:
Appeal to authority fallacy.

I can cite dozens of writers who make a stronger case for Paul speaking as a believer struggling against sin than you have made for Paul speaking as an unregenerate concerned about his sin which I see as oxymoronic.
Click to expand...
Then why have you not done it?

Talk is cheap
 
Howie said:
Because I don't engage in appeal to authority fallacies, as you, @Chalcedon do. I've already told you that.
Click to expand...
Teach the guy a phrase and he beats it to death

However where do you see a believer is left in slavery to sin

I am not talking about an occasional sin

but actual slavery, an inability to resist sin of which Theo stated we do not teach that

was he in error?

do you teach that?

btw

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


your idea of remaining slavery is unbiblical
 
fltom said:
Teach the guy a phrase and he beats it to death

However where do you see a believer is left in slavery to sin
Click to expand...
Where have I asserted a believer is left in slavery to sin? Provide a link to me asserting that, please.
 
Chalcedon said:
From Got ? on practicing sin. living in sin.

In his first epistle, the apostle John deals with the assurance of our salvation: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). Since he wants his readers to “know” they have eternal life, John provides a test of faith that we can use to examine whether or not we are truly saved.

In 1 John are various descriptions of the genuine believer. If a person knows Christ and is growing in grace, he or she will be generally marked by the following traits:

1. The believer enjoys fellowship with Christ and His redeemed people (1 John 1:3).
2. The believer walks in the light, not in the darkness (1 John 1:6–7).
3. The believer admits and confesses his sin (1 John 1:8).
4. The believer obeys God’s Word (1 John 2:3–5).
5. The believer loves God rather than the world (1 John 2:15).
6. The believer’s life is characterized by “doing what is right” (1 John 2:29).
7. The believer seeks to maintain a pure life (1 John 3:3).
8. The believer sees a decreasing pattern of sin in his life (1 John 3:5–6; 5:18).
9. The believer demonstrates love for other Christians (1 John 3:14).
10. The believer “walks the walk,” versus just “talking the talk” (1 John 3:18–19).
11. The believer maintains a clear conscience (1 John 3:21).
12. The believer experiences victory in his Christian walk (1 John 5:4).

Number 8 in the list above is that the believer will evince a decreasing pattern of sin in his or her life. Here is what John says:

“No one who lives in [Christ] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6)

and

“We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them” (1 John 5:18)

Some misinterpret these verses to mean that Christians can attain sinless perfection. After all, John says that “no one who lives in Him sins” (1 John 3:6, NASB) and that “no one who is born of God sins” (5:18, NASB). Based on those verses, they reason, sin must be a thing of the past. If you commit a sin, that’s proof that you are not saved, because Christians are sinless. But that is not what John is teaching.

We know that, when John writes that believers do not continue to sin, he is not referring to sinless perfection because of what he writes elsewhere in the same epistle. To believers John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). So, we are all sinners, and we continue to struggle with sin even after we are saved. We will never know a total absence of sin until we are with the Lord in glory: “When Christ appears, we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2).

If John is not referring to sinless perfection, what does he mean that believers do not continue to sin? Very simply, he means that believers will not continue practicing sin as a way of life. There will be a difference between the old life without Christ and the new life in Christ. The thief who was characterized by his theft is a thief no more; he has a different way of life. The adulterer who was characterized by his immorality is an adulterer no more; his behavior patterns have changed. The child of God who was a former thief may still struggle with covetousness, but he no longer lives according to the pattern of stealing. The child of God who was a former adulterer may still struggle with lust, but he has broken free from the old life of immorality. “All who have this hope in [Christ] purify themselves, just as he is pure” (1 John 3:3).

The Amplified Bible brings out John’s meaning clearly:

“No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6, AMP)

and

“We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18, AMP)

The word habitually is key. A believer will struggle with sin and sometimes give in, but giving in to sin is no longer normative. As we grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord (see 2 Peter 3:18), we are being sanctified. As we are led by the Spirit, we will walk more and more in obedience to the Word of God.

If a person claims to be a Christian but lives in defiance of God’s Word, then that person is showing the world he or she is unsaved. No one who continues to live in willful sin knows God. Because continual sin is incompatible with new life in Christ, living in unrepentant homosexuality, idolatry, or falsehood is proof that no regenerative work of the Spirit has yet taken place in the heart, regardless of anyone’s claims to the contrary.

John gives us the reason why believers do not continue to sin: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God” (1 John 3:9). A genuine Christian will not “deliberately, knowingly, and habitually” sin. It’s just not in their “spiritual DNA.”
Click to expand...
Appeal to Authority Fallacy ^^

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.1 Jn 1:8.

@Chalcedon, is the truth in you, yes, or no?
 
Howie said:
Appeal to Authority Fallacy ^^

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.1 Jn 1:8.

@Chalcedon, is the truth in you, yes, or no?
Click to expand...
That a low view of scripture since it’s filled with scripture. Did you rip out everything from you Bible except that one isolated and solitary verse ?

Do you know what a 1 trick pony is ?

Yikes ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top