Note that your quotation doesn't address my claim. Strawman much? You're obviously not here to engage in honest debate, but would rather just play games. Perhaps you may not have noticed that you're losing as well.
7th day queastion
- Thread starter Simpletruther
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SDAchristian
Well-known member
"Perhaps you may not have noticed that you're losing as well.", We will let GOD judge winners and losers, in righteousness.
"You're obviously not here to engage in honest debate, but would rather just play games.", You are entitled to express your opinion here on CARM. Many did not understand Jesus as well.
"Strawman much?", You may want to examine your point of view.
"Note that your quotation doesn't address my claim.", There are different kinds of "famine" in GOD's point of view. There are different kinds of "war" in GOD's point of view. There are different kinds of "chaos" in GOD's point of view.
I just pointed out the absence of GOD's Omniscience, out of your viewpoint.
Yours in Christ, Michael
And by not presenting those points of view up front, you're engaging in silly pointless games. Nuff said.
See above.
Common Tater
Active member
So which day is the real Sabbath in Samoa since they moved the International Date Line? Is it Sunday, which was Saturday before the line was moved, or is it what is now called Saturday, but used to be Friday?
Please offer a logical and lucid answer.
Common Tater
Active member
When Ellen White moved to Australia, crossed the IDW near New Zealand, and Wednesday became Thursday, was Sabbath on Sunday, the seventh day in the weekly cycle she had ezperienced her entire life, or was it Saturday, the sixth day in her weekly cycle.
Please offer a logical and lucid reply.
Originally the Sabbath was to be "perpetual" (never ending)...
...In the Old Testament circa Moses the day started at sunrise.
...The Sabbath day started at sunrise on the 7th day and ended at sunset.
The current or existing Sabbath concept where it starts at sunset Friday evening and runs until Saturday sunset is a Rabbinical innovation.
You're conflating when the Sabbath begins with when the daylight hours of the Sabbath begins. The bible is not a rabbinic innovation, and the book of Genesis begins each day (not to be conflated with daylight hours) with "evening and morning"
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
"Justification" not required it's nothing but paradigmatic THEOLOGY!!!
I'm sorry, you're incorrect.
The phrase "evening & morning" in Genesis is an idiom that means subsequent to the creative act (during the daylight hours) that evening and morning followed - with morning ushering in the new day.
Genesis 1, 8:
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
On day 1 God created / distinguished the day and the night - evening followed THAT day and when the sun rose on day two day one was ended. Day two ended on the morning of day 3 - & the evening and the morning were the 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. days.
Exodus 12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
The instruction was for the Israelites to select a lamb on the 10th day of the 1st month - they were to kill the lamb and roast it in the evening of the 10th day.
The same concept is found in the instructions on how to celebrate Yom Kippur in Lev 23.
"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath".
The Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Israelite month, however, to comply with this specific holy day the Israelites were to dany themselves starting on the 9th day AT EVENING through to the morning of the 11th day the Israelites were to deny themselves. This is because the evening belonged to the previous day.
Here is another example.
Exodus 16
And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Tomorrow isn't today and today isn't yesterday.
Rabbinical innovation applied the rule for observing the day of atonement to the weekly Sabbath of the Israelites. I'm not saying this is a bad tradition but it's absolutely a tradition whether you want to admit it or not.
So you seem to think.
Note that it is "evening and morning" which constitute the entire day. The day runs from one evening to the next.
Look at it again, a little slower.
Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God created the 1st day and named the elements of it (daylight hours being called day & the darkness being called night). AND the evening and the morning were the 1st day. The text states the opposite of what you suggest.
You're seeing things that simply are not there. "evening and morning" necessarily includes the evening that precedes the first morning. He creates light, then divides the night from the day with what? The EVENING. It's EVENLY divided.
You're not understanding, there wasn't a prior evening. You won't find anything in Scripture that says you are to observe the 7th day Sabbath starting on the prior evening.
Not by your reckoning. They don't view it as the prior evening. They view it as the evening of the Sabbath. The same is true for all of the feast days prescribed in the Mosaic law. When Jesus sits down with his disciples to observe the Passover, it's the evening of the Passover. He's observing the same Passover as prescribed by the Mosaic law, but the city of Jerusalem isn't keeping the Lord's Passover. They're keeping their own Passover by slaughtering their lambs on the day of the Passover. “And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem” (John 2:13). Here it is called “the Jews’ Passover”—not “the Lord’s Passover.”
Exodus 12:8 says the Israelites were to eat the Passover meal “in that night.” Which night? The one mentioned in verse 6: the 14th. After that, God smote the firstborn “this night” (verse 12). Not the next night—this night—the 14th!
That is why, in Numbers 28:16, it says, “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord” (see also Leviticus 23:5-6). The events of the Passover occur in the 14th. And the events of the first day of Unleavened Bread occur in the 15th.
In Exodus 12:21-22 we find clear instructions that the Israelites were not to leave their houses until morning. If they did, they would have died. This is why they were to burn their leftovers the next morning (verse 10). Remember, since God’s days begin at sunset, the morning after the Passover is still the 14th—the day portion of the 14th.
They weren’t supposed to leave their houses until morning, yet Deuteronomy 16:1 says they left Egypt “by night.” Their exodus from Egypt then had to be that following night, or the night of the 15th. This was to be a “night to be much observed” (Exodus 12:42). This is confirmed in Numbers 33:3: “And they departed … on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow AFTER the passover ….” Throughout Scripture, God makes an obvious distinction between the Passover and the exodus from Egypt.
And finally, there is the spoiling of the Egyptians (Exodus 12:33-36). This could have only taken place on the afternoon of the 14th, just hours before the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th. They did not spoil the Egyptians many days before the Passover. The Israelites were slaves. It was this plague that caused the Egyptians to surrender their belongings.
When the Hebrew children would ask about this service years later, the parents were to respond, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s Passover” (Exodus 12:27). Yes, this is God’s Passover—and God said “the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (Leviticus 23:5).
Many generations later, the Israelites were still keeping the Passover on the 14th. They kept the Passover on the correct day when they were in the wilderness (Numbers 9:5). When they entered into the Promised Land, they were still all in agreement (Joshua 5:10). King Josiah kept the Passover on the 14th (2 Chronicles 35:1). We also read in Ezra’s time they were still keeping it on the 14th (Ezra 6:19), and this was about 519 b.c.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
It was given to the Jews and they know and have been keeping it weekly without stopping for 3500 years, and SDAs keep the same day the Jews do. Simple. What's the big deal. Its not like they revere the Sabbath day more than they do Jesus, though with all these posts about the Sabbath over anything else one would think otherwise. So don't judge them - Romans 14.
Verse 14
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
You've answered your own question here, the night of the 14th day belongs to the 14th day, it's NOT the start of the 15th day...
...The Feast of unleavened bread, which followed Passover, began, on the 15th day, which started AT SUNRISE.
...The lamb was slaughtered on the 14th and it was roasted and consumed at night within the Biblical 14th.
You need to read the account more carefully, perhaps slower.
Verse 22 indeed has the prohibition about going outside the house UNTIL the morning.
Verses 29 - 35 explain what happened in detail. At midnight the angel took the life of every firstborn and soon thereafter the wailing started, "A GREAT CRY". Pharoah summons Moses and Aaron and tells them to rise up and depart. The Egyptians were so desperate to get the Israelites to leave Scripture leaves one with the impression that it was comparable to an urgent bowel movement. The text says the Israelites did as Moses said. They started leaving before sunrise, i.e. it was still night.
There is no violation of God's law here, unless God has somehow become wooden. The fact is that Israel was indeed free on the night of the 14th, the same "DAY" the lamb was killed, the night that belonged to the same day the lamb was killed.
Unleavened bread started on the day after the Passover as Passover is a feast unto itself.
14 Abib (Passover), 15 Abib (1st day of unleavened bread - 7th day).
Correct. And the night of the 14th day precedes the morning of the 14th day.
The daylight hours of the 15th day began at sunrise, but the evening and night of the 15th day precedes the morning of the 15th day.
Correct.
You need to pay more attention to the fact that the evening of the 14th precedes the morning of the 14th.
Correct, and that morning follows the evening of the 14th.
False. Read it again. You just contradicted yourself.
False. I just presented the proof texts for your edification, and you just admitted that they couldn't go anywhere until the morning of the 14th which necessarily follows the evening and night of the 14th. You're still stuck in your own reckoning of time rather than what the bible explicitly points out, i.e. the entire night precedes the entire day which is not how modern days are reckoned, e.g. the first half of the night precedes the day while the second half follows it. The night is split at midnight. Your night of the 14th ends at midnight, but they reckoned it as ending at sunrise.
False. Passover as described in the Mosaic law is NOT a feast at all, but "the preparation day" for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. If you're not going to look at what I just posted, then go bother someone else.
The 15ths of Abib isn't the seventh day, but the first day of the feast.
Like I said, you need to slow down.
Leviticus 23, 4
These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
The rest of your arguments will end up the same way as the one above did. I've got things to do today so I'll be on later to help you out a bit.
Where does it state it is "the FEAST of the Lord's Passover"???? It doesn't. Nowhere does it claim this is a feast. Q.E.D.
Ah, there it is!!! There's the feast!!! Q.E.D.
That would be the "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" which is SEVEN DAYS, not eight as "the FEAST OF THE JEWS" observed it. You're conflating the FEAST of the LORD with the "feast of the JEWS". If you can't see that, there is no need to bother any further. You're the only one who needs help here.
Israelite Doctrine developed more fully over time and that included change in Doctrine. For a long time in Jewish history the day was believed to be from morning to morning and if a 24-hour period was intended to be indicated the phrase 'day & night' or some other similar phrase would be used. You will notice that in the later Books of the Old Testament the phrase 'day & night' were reversed to 'night & day'.
1 Samuel 19,10
And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin: but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night. Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain. So Michal let David down through a window: and he went, and fled, and escaped.
In case you missed it, "to morrow" means the next or following DAY, it DOESN'T mean another part of the same day. To make it more clear for you.
Leviticus 7, 13
Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings. And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the Lord, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning. But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten: But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
If you were an Israelite, the meat of your peace offering for thanksgiving HAD TO BE CONSUMED on the SAME DAY that it was offered - YOU are not to leave ANY OF IT UNTIL THE MORNING. The reason for this is because the next morning IS NOT PART OF THE PREVIOUS DAY. Now, on the other hand if you were an Israelite and made a vow or voluntary offering your options increased a bit - you were to eat that Sacrifice on the same day you offered it AND the NEXT DAY. If however you couldn't eat that much mutton after sunrise on the 3rd day you had to burn the leftovers.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp unless you have some sort of strange doctrine to protect. The fact is that modern Judaism and its doctrines are interpreted by the Babylon Talmud, they are Talmudic. I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all as retaining religious traditions and histories is a GOOD THING. I'm just saying that if Jewish scholars are able to admit that the Jewish reckoning of when a day started was dynamic and not static and Christian scholars the likes of Ronnald De Vaux concur with them in that observation - it stands to reason that amateur's in Scripture study (that would be us) should not discount or leverage their experience.