9 Points of the One True Church

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Too bad Jesus disagrees with you!:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Obviously you missed the point. Dead apostles and prophets cannot guide us today. There message is timeless and in accordance with that very Bible that you claim you think you have eternal life, it says In the church there are first apostles, second prophets. If you don't have them, then you don't have the church Paul was referring too.
Telling them to read the words of dead prophets?!
What?!
Yep. You know that though they had many dead prophets, they still had apostles and prophets, just like we do today and unlike what you all don't have.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
The word of God is living and active... when it comes through living and active apostles and prophets. Otherwise, it is dead and inactive. That's what happens when you have dead apostles and prophets.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, we do. God said His word would never die
I have no doubt that God's words will never die. That's not my argument. The scriptures are quite clear. "in the church there are first apostles, second prophets..." This is the word of God. Those words are not dead, but the apostles and prophets that you claim lead you are dead.
And Je has preserved it for us, for many centuries.
No. He didn't. The Bible is not preserved very well at all. Further, your interpretation abuses the word of God even further. Hence the need for apostles and prophets in the church. God's word will never die, but that doesn't mean that we have God's word.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
  1. The true Christian church teaches monotheism, the belief that only one God exists, and that is the God who we worship (Deut. 4:35,39, 1 Kings 8:60, Isa. 43:10, 44:6,8, 45:5,21,22, 46:9, John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:4-6, etc.)

This is contingent how ‘God’ is defined.
1 Cor 8:4-6 (See further expiation here:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/how-does-the-law-and-jesus-define-‘god’.436/)

  1. The true Christian church teaches that God is a Trinity. This is simply a recognition that while there only exists one God, that God exists in the form of three different “persons” (ie. “identities”). The Father is God (Matt. 5:16), the Son is God (John 1:1), the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3,4). The term “God” here is not used as a name (for it is not), but simply for the type of being He is (ie. “deity”). God’s name is actually “YHWH”, sometimes called the “Tetragrammaton”, and sometimes used in the form of “Yahweh” or “Jehovah”.
The term “Trinity” didn’t come from the Bible. Thus, irrelevant.
While the Bible can be interpreted that a Trinity can be implied, God is never explicitly defined as 3 persons form one entity.
God the Father is the Father of our Spirits.
(Num. 16:22; 27:16; Mal. 2:10; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through His Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41)
Jesus (YHWH) is the God of God’s chosen people. (See response to previous point above). He receives his power from the Father. For example, he was given power of all flesh. (John 17:2); Jesus doesn’t have power to know all things (Luke 10:22 - All things are delivered to me of my Father...)
The Holy Ghost witnesses of God’s truth. He is the messenger. Thus, the message has the Father’s divine investiture as recognized in Acts 5:3-4

  1. The true Christian church must teach that God is spirit (John 4:24), and that a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

First, This isn’t saying God doesn’t have a body of flesh and bone. It’s identifying God is the Father of our spirits.
For example: Other scriptures state ‘God is Love’ but God is also capable of hate - he hates sin.

Second, The underlying point is John 14:6 “Jesus...[is] the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

This is supported by the following verses in John 14:
(First receive the Holy Ghost)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Then receive the Son)
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
(Then receive the Father)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
...
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Mormonism teaches that no man has seen God, except quickened by the Spirit, (D&C 67:1)

This is supported in Matt 11:27 and Luke 10:22

Thus, the instruction coupled with God being a Spirit in John 4:24: “and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

In the Mormon Plan of Salvation this aligns perfectly with ‘degrees of Glory’
Holy Ghost’s Glory - Telestial
Jesus Christ’s Glory - Terrestial
God the Father’s Glory - Celestial

See also D&C sections 76 and 93

Joseph Smith sure had some lucky guesses to be that congruent. Wouldn’t you say?

Further, Scriptures plainly and repeatedly teach that “God is not a man” (Num. 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, Job 9:32).
These verses are referring to the morality of fallen man. Obviously, God is not like man, but we can become like God. We were made in his image.

God is invisible (Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27).
...To us presently. God the Father certainly was seen and heard in the Bible Primarily to witness of His Son. (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; Acts 7:55-56)

Far from God and man being the same “species”, God is Creator, and man the creature (creation) (Gen. 1:27, Eph. 2:10, etc.).
I disagree. We are creators and rulers in the bounds God has given. Man was given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26) and to multiply and be fruitful (Gen. 1:28) (aka. “Creating children”).

Jesus, who is God, took on a body of flesh, and the reason He needed to take on a body is precisely because a physical body is not part of inherent nature of God.
But it doesn’t actually say that in the Bible. Telestial flesh can’t dwell in a Celestial Glory. (It must be transfigured first until we’re glorified and immortal) Thus, Jesus descended to take upon flesh, to stone for our sins. (Scriptural citations can be given upon request)


  1. God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6), He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8). He has always been perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God has never had to “learn” anything new, as He is omniscient, and knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10).
This is all true of God the Father
In the flesh, Jesus had to be given knowledge and power (explained above), and was tested in all things. Yet, he was perfect, which is how He could atone for our sins.

He has never “progressed”
as He has never been anything less than God. He will never “progress”, for He is already perfect and divine.
This is also true of the Father and the Son
While in mortality, Jesus was the perfect model of true progression.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
God is the God of the living, yes. But the apostles and prophets are dead. They are not God. Once again, you prove yourself wrong.
No, YOU do. IF these people were not with God in heaven after death, then God would have told Moses "I WAS the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob."

These men are physically dead, but their souls are with God in Paradise, awaiting the Resurrection from the dead.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I have no doubt that God's words will never die. That's not my argument. The scriptures are quite clear. "in the church there are first apostles, second prophets..." This is the word of God. Those words are not dead, but the apostles and prophets that you claim lead you are dead.

No. He didn't. The Bible is not preserved very well at all. Further, your interpretation abuses the word of God even further. Hence the need for apostles and prophets in the church. God's word will never die, but that doesn't mean that we have God's word.
What are apostles, in the broadest sense?


Apostles in the broader sense just means those who teach and take the Gospel to others, like missionaries. Lots of churches have those--my church does. But your church's apostles are no more of the same rank as the original 12 in the NT, than any missionary is.

And as has been stated before on here, YOUR church's apostles are false apostles, directed unwittingly by Satan, to teach errors and lies, that lead people away from the true Jesus Christ of the Bible to eternal darkness with the devil and all his angels.

2 Corinthians 11, in part:

Paul and the False Apostles​

11 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. [
4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

This is EXACTLY what Mormons have done--they have accepted ANOTHER JESUS and a DIFFERENT GOSPEL, than the one Paul and the other true Apostles of the church preached, in the first century church. And Mormons have "put up with it easily enough!" Why, one of their own leaders admits that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of Christendom (paraphrasing). He was correct! For once, the truth comes out of a Mormon leader.

12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

And the LDS church and some of its members like to boast that they are the true church because they have "apostles." Well, having FALSE apostles that preach lies and heresies is NOTHING TO BOAST ABOUT. They are "deceitful workers" and "clouds without rain." They are to be rejected wholeheartedly!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is contingent how ‘God’ is defined.
1 Cor 8:4-6 (See further expiation here:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/how-does-the-law-and-jesus-define-‘god’.436/)


The term “Trinity” didn’t come from the Bible. Thus, irrelevant.
While the Bible can be interpreted that a Trinity can be implied, God is never explicitly defined as 3 persons form one entity.
God the Father is the Father of our Spirits.
(Num. 16:22; 27:16; Mal. 2:10; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through His Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41)
Jesus (YHWH) is the God of God’s chosen people. (See response to previous point above). He receives his power from the Father. For example, he was given power of all flesh. (John 17:2); Jesus doesn’t have power to know all things (Luke 10:22 - All things are delivered to me of my Father...)
The Holy Ghost witnesses of God’s truth. He is the messenger. Thus, the message has the Father’s divine investiture as recognized in Acts 5:3-4


John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

First, This isn’t saying God doesn’t have a body of flesh and bone. It’s identifying God is the Father of our spirits.
For example: Other scriptures state ‘God is Love’ but God is also capable of hate - he hates sin.

Second, The underlying point is John 14:6 “Jesus...[is] the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

This is supported by the following verses in John 14:
(First receive the Holy Ghost)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Then receive the Son)
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
(Then receive the Father)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
...
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Mormonism teaches that no man has seen God, except quickened by the Spirit, (D&C 67:1)

This is supported in Matt 11:27 and Luke 10:22

Thus, the instruction coupled with God being a Spirit in John 4:24: “and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

In the Mormon Plan of Salvation this aligns perfectly with ‘degrees of Glory’
Holy Ghost’s Glory - Telestial
Jesus Christ’s Glory - Terrestial
God the Father’s Glory - Celestial

See also D&C sections 76 and 93

Joseph Smith sure had some lucky guesses to be that congruent. Wouldn’t you say?


These verses are referring to the morality of fallen man. Obviously, God is not like man, but we can become like God. We were made in his image.


...To us presently. God the Father certainly was seen and heard in the Bible Primarily to witness of His Son. (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; Acts 7:55-56)


I disagree. We are creators and rulers in the bounds God has given. Man was given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26) and to multiply and be fruitful (Gen. 1:28) (aka. “Creating children”).


But it doesn’t actually say that in the Bible. Telestial flesh can’t dwell in a Celestial Glory. (It must be transfigured first until we’re glorified and immortal) Thus, Jesus descended to take upon flesh, to stone for our sins. (Scriptural citations can be given upon request)



This is all true of God the Father
In the flesh, Jesus had to be given knowledge and power (explained above), and was tested in all things. Yet, he was perfect, which is how He could atone for our sins.


This is also true of the Father and the Son
While in mortality, Jesus was the perfect model of true progression.
So, Jesus progressed from a mere mortal man to being a God? Like in the Snow couplet? Is that what you mean?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No, you don't. They are dead. Therefore you do not have them. You have the Bible. The Bible is not a prophet or an apostle.
NO, but the Bible IS the word of God, and records the words of God's TRUE prophets and apostles. And what does Hebrews 4 says about God's word?

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The souls of these prophets and apostles are with God in heaven. They exist. But God's word is NOT dead but active and alive, as the Hebrews verses says.

The church is built upon the FOUNDATION of the prophets of old and the apostles, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 3:11--
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20--
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone


Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Foundation-Of-The-Church

IS laid. HAVING BEEN BUILT. The foundation of the church has already been made. Those who have come after this build on this foundation, but they do not add to the foundation of the church. Your church attempts to add its living "prophets" and "apostles" into this already laid "foundation." But they are false prophets and false apostles, preaching false doctrines and all false doctrines are lies--who is the father of lies?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No, YOU do. IF these people were not with God in heaven after death, then God would have told Moses "I WAS the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob."

These men are physically dead, but their souls are with God in Paradise, awaiting the Resurrection from the dead.

Like I said... Mormons can't hope to persuade anyone to embrace the false teachings of Mormonism, so at this point, they're simply into "damage control", trying their hardest to prevent their current members from leaving.

Mormons complain that our apostles and prophets are "dead", but as you (and I) have already pointed out, Jesus proclaimed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and by extension, all Christians) are still LIVING.

And we have their writings. And in my estimation, Mormons merely "skim the surface". There are DEEP RICHES in the Scriptures, many Christians have spent their entire life studying the Scriptures, and finding so much treasure, but haven't gotten even close to extracting all the truths therein.

Mormons whine for "modern prophets", but they reject the Scriptures we already have.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
So, Jesus progressed from a mere mortal man to being a God? Like in the Snow couplet? Is that what you mean?
No, absolutely not.

In mortality, Jesus (The Only Begotten of the Father) was given everything from his Father. Yet, he was still fully man and fully God, and He was perfect from birth.

Prior to his mortality He was Jehovah.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
NO, but the Bible IS the word of God
It is, minus the changes made by men. Those would be the words of men.
and records the words of God's TRUE prophets and apostles.
Some of them. Not all of them. And as long as men who weren't apostles and prophets didn't change anything then they were as close to God's word as we can get, but without any living apostles and prophets, we're not going to get any more.

Why do you suppose they are "first" in the church? Now, in your churches, it is the pastor who is first in the church, completely eliminating apostles and prophets. That is not biblical. That is not the church that Jesus established. That is not the church that the apostles taught. "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it". (2 Tim 3:14) What did we learn from the apostles? that In the church there are first apostles, second prophets, etc, etc, etc. Any church that does not continue in what they learned, is not a legitimate church.

Once we get past that, we can move on to other things.
And what does Hebrews 4 says about God's word?
That the word of God is alive and active? You know he wasn't talking about the New Testament, right? In fact, it appears that he wasn't talking about the scriptures at all. They are just words on paper and paper is not sharper than a two-edged sword. The most you might get from the scriptures is a papercut. I highly doubt it would divide asunder anything much less "soul and spirit, joints and marrow". The New Testamet didn't exist when this statement was made. Now, with dead apostles and prophets, you don't have what they had. The word of God will never fail, that is true, but without living apostles and prophets, you all have to rely on dead prophets and apostles who are not active. That is not the church that Jesus organized.
The souls of these prophets and apostles are with God in heaven. They exist. But God's word is NOT dead but active and alive
Of course, you have to say that. If you didn't, it would be admitting the truth. You have to support your animus at all costs. The fact remains, all you have is words on a page. They are as dead as the prophets and apostles that you don't have in your churches. We can see this as churches shift with the times, women in the priesthood, same-sex marriage, churches offering refuge to hateful people while closing their doors to the poor and afflicted. So sorry, but, God's word is not living in the churches that claim they have them and it is certainly not active.
The church is built upon the FOUNDATION of the prophets of old and the apostles
dead apostles and prophets. That is not a foundation. Without a living foundation, that is maintained, the building will fall and that is what is happening today in many modern Christian churches.
S laid. HAVING BEEN BUILT.
yep. all past tense. It is clear from the New Testament that the apostles and prophets were not a passing thing. They were constantly renewed and added too, else, why would Paul be called, right? The church lost them and with that loss, so went the church.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, absolutely not.

In mortality, Jesus (The Only Begotten of the Father) was given everything from his Father. Yet, he was still fully man and fully God, and He was perfect from birth.

Prior to his mortality He was Jehovah.
Yeah. I'm not even sure how anyone would get that from what you posted.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is, minus the changes made by men. Those would be the words of men.

... which you STILL haven't proven.

Some of them. Not all of them. And as long as men who weren't apostles and prophets didn't change anything then they were as close to God's word as we can get, but without any living apostles and prophets, we're not going to get any more.

Where does the Bible teach that the function of the apostles and prophets is to "correct Scripture"?
Oh, I suppose you're going to say that "removed that part" as well, right?

See? You can justify just about ANYTHING with such nonsense accusations.

Why do you suppose they are "first" in the church?

Because the are the FOUNDATION.
ONLY LAID ONCE.

How many times have you laid the foundation of your house?

Eph. 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

Now, in your churches, it is the pastor who is first in the church, completely eliminating apostles and prophets.

Wrong again, because the pastor PREACHES "the apostles and prophets".

Once we get past that, we can move on to other things.

That the word of God is alive and active? You know he wasn't talking about the New Testament, right? In fact, it appears that he wasn't talking about the scriptures at all. They are just words on paper and paper is not sharper than a two-edged sword. The most you might get from the scriptures is a papercut.

Not only a rejection of God's word, but a mocking of it.
So sad.

yep. all past tense. It is clear from the New Testament that the apostles and prophets were not a passing thing. They were constantly renewed and added too,

"constantly renewed and added"?

What is your evidence for that?
Oh, that's right, you never provide any evidence for any of your false claims.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What are apostles, in the broadest sense?
I'm not talking in "the broadest sense". I'm speaking specifically about what Paul said. You all don't have any apostles or prophets in the very specific sense of the twelve apostles of the lamb.
Well, having FALSE apostles that preach lies and heresies is NOTHING TO BOAST ABOUT
It doesn't matter whether I boast or not. The fact is, you all have NONE. Zero. Zip. NADA. There are no points of the one true church without apostles and prophets. PERIOD.
 
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