A bizarre definition of morality from the guy who loves to tell us he's more moral than the God whom he supposedly doesn't believe exists

treeplanter

Well-known member
Not really.

Do you think that argument will actually work?

"Hey God, I'm better than you!"
I don't think that there is a God to argue with, Jimmy

If anyone, my 'argument' is with you - you're concerned with sin when what you ought to concern yourself with is morality...
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Alright, Mr. biblical literalist, please provide scripture saying that impersonal concrete nouns can be instantly created by the same God with whom, according to scripture, "all things are possible", but personal abstractions cannot

Dumb comment, as usual. Do you think 1+1 can = 3, since I cannot "provide scripture saying that" it cannot? Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.

I'll wait here...

As opposed to where?
 

Lucian

Active member
There is no such thing as a 'good reason' for an unlimited being to permit/cause harm because an unlimited being never, ever needs to do so
How do you know this? Omnipotence is seldom couched (at least by philosophically aware folks) in terms of the ability to do literally anything. It may, for example, be impossible for even an omnipotent being to achieve a certain praiseworthy end without permitting such suffering as we experience.

Further, you're limiting the range of justifying reasons God might have for permitting evil to only those justifications that are teleological, i.e. about accomplishing an end. How do you know that there are not qualitatively distinct kinds of justification relevant in this case?
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Do you think 1+1 can = 3, since I cannot "provide scripture saying that" it cannot?
You're being hypocritical again

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.
If God can create a man and woman who are already, from the start, 'good' - without having to earn this distinction on the basis of their cumulative actions over time - then God can just as easily create man and woman automatically wise, ennobled, etc

Why do you press your own limitations upon God?
Just because you cannot become victorious without having been through a process of overcoming doesn't mean that God is as weak as you...
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Many parents do in fact need to cause their children to undergo sometimes extremely painful medical remedies in order to relieve their suffering and pain. It is generally considered reasonable and loving to do so and neglectful not to do so.
That is a different scenario than what you said (post #365). You said God subjected us to pain in order to relieve pain, which is different than the scenario above. The parent in the scenario above did not “subject” his child to the disease requiring a remedy.
Well the passage is fairly straightforward but I am always open to the possibility that I have misunderstood. Did you have another take on this passage you would like me to hear?
Now you are asking the right questions.

Who is the “god of this world” (2 cor 4:4)?
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Just because you cannot become victorious without having been through a process of overcoming doesn't mean that God is as weak as you...

Heh. Weak, you say. Maybe in addition to claiming greater morality than God you can claim lesser strength than the guy in those old Charles Atlas ads on the back of comic books, the guy who got sand kicked in his face.

Speaking of weak, I notice you were too weak to refute my example. Let me type it again, and give you another shot at refuting it:

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.

Now go ahead, strong, moral boy, give me just ONE example of an instantaneous victory, requiring no previous battle over which to be victorious. And don't give me that, "Duh, I'm too weak to do it, but, duh, God should be able to" crap, unless you also want to claim He can make 1+1=3.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Heh. Weak, you say. Maybe in addition to claiming greater morality than God you can claim lesser strength than the guy in those old Charles Atlas ads on the back of comic books, the guy who got sand kicked in his face.

Speaking of weak, I notice you were too weak to refute my example. Let me type it again, and give you another shot at refuting it:

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.

Now go ahead, strong, moral boy, give me just ONE example of an instantaneous victory, requiring no previous battle over which to be victorious. And don't give me that, "Duh, I'm too weak to do it, but, duh, God should be able to" crap, unless you also want to claim He can make 1+1=3.
God creating human beings who are wise, ennobled, etc - from the start - is no more of a logical inconsistency than God creating man as 'good' - from the get go

You believe that God created Adam and Eve as 'good'
The whole of Christianity believes that God created A&E as 'good'

If God can create human beings automatically 'good'
{without them having to establish themselves as good through their own actions}
then He can sure as well create human beings who are automatically wise, ennobled, etc


C'mon, hypocrite who never lets it rest when I say that the bible says something without expressly stating it - show me the verse stating that impersonal concrete nouns can be instantly created by the same God with whom, according to scripture, "all things are possible", but personal abstractions cannot
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
You believe that God created Adam and Eve as 'good'
The whole of Christianity believes that God created A&E as 'good'

WRONG! Thus your failure to produce scripture to back that up. However, we do have this to refute your boneheaded comment:

Mark 10:18:

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone."

C'mon, hypocrite who never lets it rest when I say that the bible says something without expressly stating it - show me the verse stating that impersonal concrete nouns can be instantly created by the same God with whom, according to scripture, "all things are possible", but personal abstractions cannot

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.

Now go ahead, strong, moral boy, give me just ONE example of an instantaneous victory, requiring no previous battle over which to be victorious. And don't give me that, "Duh, I'm too weak to do it, but, duh, God should be able to" crap, unless you also want to claim He can make 1+1=3.
 

4thrite

Member
Not to belabor the point, but if I were to ignore the totality of what was said and selectively edit docphin's post to "no human father" then I could argue that docphin was suggesting that there are no human fathers to begin with

Bit silly, don't you think?

Clearly, docphin was, like I said, pointing out that it is ridiculous to suggest that a perfect Father, like God, would subject His children to needless harm when even an imperfect father, like yourself and most every other human being, knows better than to do so
Even if that is so (and I'm not agreeing that it is) I think that we agree that it can be acceptable to inflict pain and suffering on another (even children) if the goal is to alleviate pain and suffering.
So, what you are saying is that:

God inflicting needless harm upon us = God proving to us that we need Him
and, conversely:
God choosing not to inflict needless harm upon us = God leaving open the door that leads us to think that we can live without Him?

Am I correctly understanding your position??
No, I don't believe that God is inflicting needless harm upon us; that is your belief.

I believe that God has acted in a way that any human father (or mother) can understand; acting in the best long term interests of a child even though you may have to cause short term suffering.

One child undergoing a painful procedure may understand and draw close to his or her loving parents, trusting them, that things will (or may) get better in the future. Another child may lash out at his parents, the doctors, and become filled with hatred and rage everytime he is forced into another painful session.

john
 

4thrite

Member
In such a way that corruption would not ensue?

He's the all-knowing and all-powerful one - would have been trivial.
If he is the all-knowing one then it seems logical that when he chose a universe in which corruption is possible, he chose the best from all of the options available to him.

john
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
If he is the all-knowing one then it seems logical that when he chose a universe in which corruption is possible, he chose the best from all of the options available to him.
Or, the more parsimonious explanation, he didn't do anything, and the world we experience came about naturally.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I believe that God has acted in a way that any human father (or mother) can understand; acting in the best long term interests of a child even though you may have to cause short term suffering.
Yes, human parents well understand that sometimes they must inflict temporary harm upon their children in order to provide them with a greater benefit down the line

This is a needed or needful harm and there is nothing whatsoever immoral about inflicting this kind of harm

However, to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others is immoral


Any and all harm that God inflicts upon us towards the end of serving our best interest is, by definition, needless because God can always serve our best interest WITHOUT inflicting harm upon us!
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Genesis 6:9
"This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God."

Hmm...you messed up again
When will you learn that quoting scripture is a dangerous endeavor given that scripture invariably contradicts itself?

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.
Sheer logic should tell you that a fully formed, adult human being cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding period of maturation {growth from infancy to childhood to adolescence to adulthood over a number of years}

And yet you believe that God created Adam as a fully formed, adult human being
The whole of Christianity believes that God created Adam as a fully formed, adult human being

If it's not too illogical for God to create fully formed, adult human beings from scratch then it's not too illogical for God to create human beings who are wise and ennobled from the start


Have you found the verse yet?

You know, the verse that says that impersonal concrete nouns can be instantly created by the same God with whom, according to scripture, "all things are possible", but personal abstractions cannot?
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Genesis 6:9
"This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God."

Whoops. You forgot the verse about how he was supposedly, PRESTO, righteous from birth.

Hmm...you messed up again
When will you learn that quoting scripture is a dangerous endeavor given that scripture invariably contradicts itself?

Whoops. You forgot to show a contradiction. You just keep screwing up.

Sheer logic should tell you that a fully formed, adult human being cannot be instantaneously created

AMEN!! You finally got it. Took you long enough.

You know, the verse that says that impersonal concrete nouns can be instantly created by the same God with whom, according to scripture, "all things are possible", but personal abstractions cannot?

Sheer logic should tell you that a victory for example cannot be instantaneously created, since it would require a preceding battle over which to be victorious.

Now go ahead, strong, moral boy, give me just ONE example of an instantaneous victory, requiring no previous battle over which to be victorious. And don't give me that, "Duh, I'm too weak to do it, but, duh, God should be able to" crap, unless you also want to claim He can make 1+1=3.
 
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