A bizarre definition of morality from the guy who loves to tell us he's more moral than the God whom he supposedly doesn't believe exists

treeplanter

Well-known member
We have already covered this point: it is not immoral to inflict suffering on another for a worthy purpose.

john
Yes, we have already been over this - there is nothing remotely immoral in the infliction of needed/needful harm

The problem is that God consciously and purposefully inflicts NEEDLESS harm
 

4thrite

Member
Can you explain why God does nothing to feed the thousands of children who are slowly starving to death? Why does God allow men to rape women by the million and do nothing to stop it?
Starvation and rape are aspects of a godless world. They are proof positive that the godless world is a violent world of degredation that has no right to exist. But one cannot say that the godless world has no right to exist until it reveals its true nature.

Scripturally speaking this godless world is going to be allowed to exist until it reveals its true nature. Jesus gave us a clue as to what that means at Matthew 24:22 wherein he speaks of a time to come when "no flesh will be saved" except that the "days will be cut short".

What does that mean? It means that this godless world will bring us to the brink of total annilahation but that the days will be cut short before that happens. Two questions: who brings us to the brink of destruction and who cuts short the days?

The godless world of starvation and rape is the world that determines to destroy us all; the God who created us is the One who saves us from them.

He will allow this godless world of starvation and rape to exist up to the point where all life is imperilled and then he will step in and bring it to an end. And no one will be able to argue with it. And all of the victims of the world that he allowed to exist will be healed of all that they have experienced.

john
 

4thrite

Member
Yes, we have already been over this - there is nothing remotely immoral in the infliction of needed/needful harm

The problem is that God consciously and purposefully inflicts NEEDLESS harm
And again, that is not what scripture says. It says that God has allowed us to be subjected to pain and suffering so that we will be set free from corruption.

john
 

4thrite

Member
Wanting to know something that one does not already know is NOT the same thing as knowing that something

In plain English, thinking to one's self - "I'd like to know what God knows" doesn't suggest that one already has a concept of what God knows...
The serpent said to Eve: you can be like God in knowing good and bad. If Eve had never heard of good or bad up until this point then we might expect Eve to ask of the serpent, what do you mean by good and bad?

I think that his use of the terms good and bad in his argument with Eve means that they weren't unknown to her.

john
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
The serpent said to Eve: you can be like God in knowing good and bad. If Eve had never heard of good or bad up until this point then we might expect Eve to ask of the serpent, what do you mean by good and bad?

I think that his use of the terms good and bad in his argument with Eve means that they weren't unknown to her.

john
Having heard words like "good" and "bad" is not the same thing as knowing what they mean

Gloopfartskin

There, you have now seen/heard the word 'gloopfartskin'
So tell me what it means...
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
And again, that is not what scripture says. It says that God has allowed us to be subjected to pain and suffering so that we will be set free from corruption.

john
There is plenty of scripture detailing God consciously and purposefully inflicting needless pain and suffering upon us

For example, in Deuteronomy 13:6-10 God commands His followers to kill anyone
{even one's own child}
if he/she suggests following another god
 

4thrite

Member
Having heard words like "good" and "bad" is not the same thing as knowing what they mean

Gloopfartskin

There, you have now seen/heard the word 'gloopfartskin'
So tell me what it means...
You use an unknown word in order to make your point. It is the unknowness of the word that makes your point.

The serpent used the words good and bad to make his point. His point being: eat from the tree and know good and bad just like God does. I will give you that neither Adam nor Eve knew what it was to know good and bad as God did. But they must have had some knowledge of good and bad for it to be an argument. Or else it would have just been so much gloopfartskin to them.

john
 

4thrite

Member
There is plenty of scripture detailing God consciously and purposefully inflicting needless pain and suffering upon us

For example, in Deuteronomy 13:6-10 God commands His followers to kill anyone
{even one's own child}
if he/she suggests following another god
The purpose of capital punishment is to remove sources of needless pain and suffering.

john
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You use an unknown word in order to make your point. It is the unknowness of the word that makes your point.

The serpent used the words good and bad to make his point. His point being: eat from the tree and know good and bad just like God does. I will give you that neither Adam nor Eve knew what it was to know good and bad as God did. But they must have had some knowledge of good and bad for it to be an argument. Or else it would have just been so much gloopfartskin to them.

john
I used a word unknown to you
Just like the serpent used words unknown to Adam and Eve

It's not knowledge of good and evil that A&E pursued, so much as it is the idea, in and of itself, of being like God

Alas, there was no way for them to know that 'being like God' was 'evil' because they had zero concept of good and evil
 

4thrite

Member
I used a word unknown to you
Just like the serpent used words unknown to Adam and Eve
You don't know that.
It's not knowledge of good and evil that A&E pursued, so much as it is the idea, in and of itself, of being like God
They didn't pursue anything. The idea of eating was presented to Eve by a third party who presented eating as a way to be like God in knowing good and bad. You want to abbreviate it to "being like God" but the full statement was; being like God in knowing good and bad. What would "being like God" mean to them? The statement is: being like God in knowing good and bad. It all meant something to Eve.
Alas, there was no way for them to know that 'being like God' was 'evil' because they had zero concept of good and evil
That is not even relevant. They knew they weren't God and they knew that they ought not to eat of the tree.

john
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You don't know that.
Sure, I do

Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil until having eaten of the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

They didn't pursue anything.
Sure, they did

Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit precisely because they desired to be like gods, themselves

Is not pride the root of all sin?

What would "being like God" mean to them?
The same thing it means to me - it means knowing what I do not currently know

They knew they weren't God and they knew that they ought not to eat of the tree.
Sure, they knew who they were and they knew the meaning of the word 'no'
What they did not know, however, is that it is 'evil' to disobey God
{nor could they have known that it is 'good' to obey God}
 

4thrite

Member
Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil until having eaten of the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
It teaches us that they were sinless up until the time they sinned. But even sinless people can grasp the concepts of good and evil.
Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit precisely because they desired to be like gods, themselves
No it does not, it teaches us that Eve ate because she was deceived.
The same thing it means to me - it means knowing what I do not currently know
After eating Adam and Eve came to know what they did not know prior to eating: that they were naked and they felt afraid because they were naked.
Sure, they knew who they were and they knew the meaning of the word 'no'
What they did not know, however, is that it is 'evil' to disobey God
{nor could they have known that it is 'good' to obey God}
They knew that the God who had created them and everything that they had said of one tree: do not touch.

john
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
It teaches us that they were sinless up until the time they sinned. But even sinless people can grasp the concepts of good and evil.
No - Adam and Eve could not have grasped the concept of good and evil if, in the Garden, there was a Tree of said knowledge.

It's like an unstoppable force and an immovable object: you can't have both.
It's knowledge, or the Tree.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
It teaches us that they were sinless up until the time they sinned. But even sinless people can grasp the concepts of good and evil.

No it does not, it teaches us that Eve ate because she was deceived.

After eating Adam and Eve came to know what they did not know prior to eating: that they were naked and they felt afraid because they were naked.

They knew that the God who had created them and everything that they had said of one tree: do not touch.

john
This seems an overly simplistic exegesis...
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Correct. I repeat: Maybe He's waiting on you. What are you doing about it?
Posting here. Asking God aloud to reveal himself to me. Going to Christian church. Asking you to pray for me.

If God does not see then then I really question the whole omniscience thing.
Is that why you turn your back on suffering? Watching is not elegant enough for you?
This is a repeated straw man and lie.
 
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