A blessed New Year to everyone on here!

Bonnie

Super Member
May it be better than the last two years! :) One can only pray it will be! But God's richest blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord to all of you!
 

A blessed New Year to everyone on here!​


Does "everyone on here" refer exclusively to Lutherans?

I must admit I'm ignorant as to what exactly qualifies someone to be a Lutheran. Only thing I recall about Lutheranism is a something about the real presence. I attended a Lutheran Church once in Astoria Oregon winter of '92. I didn't take the elements.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
My greeting is for everyone who posts on this board. That means you, too, Stirling. :)

Orthodox Lutherans are known for our 4 solas--grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone, and the Bible is the sole source of doctrine.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask. :)
 

Nic

Well-known member
Plus infant Baptism. Plus closed communion. Plus Real Presence. Plus confession to a minister. Plus male ordination only. Sounds like there is a lot of Catholicism amongst orthodox Lutherans.
Your grievances are noted, it is equally noted that you disagree with the majority of Christendom with said grievances.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
No, the majority of Christendom is of orthodox belief, whether of the Eastern or Western Rites. Orthodoxy comes before all the others, with said others only coming on line after the 1500's. First Martin Luther and then all those who started disagreeing with him.
Only in fantasy land as what you refer to as orthodoxy is infused with what God has made foolish, that is, it is infused with the wisdom men or the philosophy of men. It is novelty.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Oh yes, the philosophy of men, men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Zwingli, etc., all men who had their own take on God's Holy Word. Disagree with your Pastor? No problem, just go out and start another "church".
What philosophical introduction initiated Luther's reforms? The others aren't relative to this discussion.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Plus infant Baptism. Plus closed communion. Plus Real Presence. Plus confession to a minister. Plus male ordination only. Sounds like there is a lot of Catholicism amongst orthodox Lutherans.
Were these grievances or affirmations?
I think I may of misread you, but your comment was somewhat ambiguous where your position was concerned.

Thank you!
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
No, the majority of Christendom is of orthodox belief, whether of the Eastern or Western Rites. Orthodoxy comes before all the others, with said others only coming on line after the 1500's. First Martin Luther and then all those who started disagreeing with him.
For 2022, my resolution is to flip a coin every day. "Heads" for Rome being the true church. "Tails" for Eastern Orthodoxy being the true church. On Dec. 31 2022 I'm going to tally the results. In the meantime, I'm going to watch defenders of both claim the other is not the "real" true church.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
For 2022, my resolution is to flip a coin every day. "Heads" for Rome being the true church. "Tails" for Eastern Orthodoxy being the true church. On Dec. 31 2022 I'm going to tally the results. In the meantime, I'm going to watch defenders of both claim the other is not the "real" true church.
both have apostolic succession (y)
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
There basically is just one big problem between East and West - the filioque controversy. Other than that, both believe in the 7 sacraments, the ECF's, and have many of the same Saints in the Communion of Saints.
Nah, it's bigger than that. Is Pope Francis your Pope?
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
What a conundrum. Both use the same argument and both claim the other is wrong.
CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

Is the CCC an infallible pronouncement with a binding pedigree, or can it be changed?

Is rejecting papal infallibility OK?
 
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Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Is the CCC an infallible pronouncement with a binding pedigree, or can it be changed?

Is rejecting papal infallibility OK?
'By its very nature, a catechism presents the fundamental truths of the faith which have already been communicated and defined. Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church. It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms. This does not mean that such teaching can be disregarded or ignored. Quite to the contrary, the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center. A major catechism, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, presents a compendium of Church teachings and has the advantage of demonstrating the harmony that exists among those teachings.' [USCCB]

The Catechism is part of the Church's ordinary teaching authority. Pope John Paul II placed his apostolic authority behind it. Its doctrinal authority is proper to the papal Magisterium. In Fidei Depositum John Paul II termed the Catechism a "sure norm for teaching the faith" and "a sure and authentic reference text." He asked "the Church's pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life." [USCCB]
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
'By its very nature, a catechism presents the fundamental truths of the faith which have already been communicated and defined. Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church. It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms. This does not mean that such teaching can be disregarded or ignored. Quite to the contrary, the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center. A major catechism, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, presents a compendium of Church teachings and has the advantage of demonstrating the harmony that exists among those teachings.' [USCCB]

The Catechism is part of the Church's ordinary teaching authority. Pope John Paul II placed his apostolic authority behind it. Its doctrinal authority is proper to the papal Magisterium. In Fidei Depositum John Paul II termed the Catechism a "sure norm for teaching the faith" and "a sure and authentic reference text." He asked "the Church's pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life." [USCCB]

So if there's another schism or something with the Eastern Orthodox, the Catechism will not be revised or changed? Answer: it can be changed or revised. On the other hand, Papal infallibility cannot.

Lest this ventures off into rabbit trails: it's absurd when either Rome's defenders or Eastern Orthodox advocates point out disunity with Protestant churches while both claiming to be the true historic church. You mention above, "both have apostolic succession," yet you fail to point out it's a different apostolic succession. It would be like me saying Protestant churches are unified because they use a Bible.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
So if there's another schism or something with the Eastern Orthodox, the Catechism will not be revised or changed? Answer: it can be changed or revised. On the other hand, Papal infallibility cannot.

Lest this ventures off into rabbit trails: it's absurd when either Rome's defenders or Eastern Orthodox advocates point out disunity with Protestant churches while both claiming to be the true historic church. You mention above, "both have apostolic succession," yet you fail to point out it's a different apostolic succession. It would be like me saying Protestant churches are unified because they use a Bible.
I didn't know that you were looking to score points... I just said ^^ :)
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
I didn't know that you were looking to score points... I just said ^^ :)
Hmm, If the points are redeemable, like when I frequently purchase goods at a convenience store, then I'll certainly seek to score more. In my 20+ years here at CARM, the only thing I appear to accumulate here at CARM... wait, I don't accumulate anything here at CARM.
 
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