A crosswalk article

SteveB

Well-known member
Grace is a gift, but we need to receive it. We receive it on faith, evidenced by our works. It’s not the works, themselves, that saves us. No one is sprinkling foreheads, or dunking kids just to make sure “the work is done.” In fact, if Mormons believe in works based salvation, why does the Book of Mormon teach against infant baptism?

Jesus, Peter, and Paul all taught baptism for the reception of the Holy Ghost. Paul even re-baptized those that had only received John’s baptism. Why? It’s not works based salvation - it’s faith in action.
Ok.
show me where these are the case.
Provide me with references, and explanation.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
So.... is this true? Because if this really is what the LDS/Mormon church believes..... be proud about it.
....
But know too..... your view of the cross is not the biblical view.
Know that your believing a false narrative.

Something else that comes to mind here--- How many copies of the bible survived ancient, medieval, and renaissance times through to today?

I've heard upwards of thousands. In the tens of thousands.

I'm curious how there cannot be even a couple of dozen copies that did not make it, which had an accurate translation.

So..... seems to me that you have a problem.
And yet, look at this forum. If the Bible is so clear, why multiple denominations? Did Paul lie about “One Lord, one faith, one baptism?”
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Ok.
show me where these are the case.
Provide me with references, and explanation.
Hmmm...big topic. Let’s start here:

Nephi is where critics pull “after all we can do”. I cross reference Ephesians to show that Paul and Nephi were saying the same thing.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Because the priesthood is restored, it is the only church that can perform ordinances that can be bound on earth and in heaven. No other church can make that claim.

That was NEVER a function of the "priesthood".
The priesthood was a Jewish thing (like Temples), not a Christian thing.

And the RCC can (and does) make the claim that they have the authority to perform ordinances. And IMO, their claim is far better than the LDS one.

But anyone with the Holy Spirit can perform the ordinances.

Moreover, YOU don’t have to take my word for it. You can read the BoM and God will tell you himself it’s true.

You just misrepresented God.
Because He told me it was fiction.

This is why Mormonism is false.
Mormons make false claims about God ALL the time.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is purely speculation on your part.
What measure ye mete....
No, it is not speculation. The LDS church has a false God, a false Savior. Satsn's actual brother, and a false doctrine that saves no one and is NO gospel at all, as Paul wrote. LDS missionsries lead people to join the LDS church, where new converts will gradually learn what it REALLY teaches--and it is not what the Bible teaches us about salvation--and lead them away from the true Jesus Christ and salvation, great and free, to eternal darkness after death. That is a shameful thing to do. I am sorry, but it is. We have only to compare what the LDS church teaches with what the Bible teaches to sed that yhe Mormon church teaches false doctrines.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hmmm...big topic. Let’s start here:

Nephi is where critics pull “after all we can do”. I cross reference Ephesians to show that Paul and Nephi were saying the same thing.
Sorry, but not even close, Aaron. Please take off your LDS blinders before it is too late.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Part 6



Wow.... so.... is this true?
Do Mormon's believe that the cross that Jesus died on was an unnecessary act of murder?
Hmm...... this is kind of spooky. I mean, if God could not prevented his own Son from being assassinated, then he's not much of a god. Definitely not one I'd expect to claim YHVH status.

For decades, Mormons have had nothing but disdain for the cross.

In fact, a favourite line of the Mishies when they see a Christian wearing a cross was, "If Jesus had been shot to death, would you be wearing an AK-47 around your neck?"


Something else that comes to mind here--- How many copies of the bible survived ancient, medieval, and renaissance times through to today?

I've heard upwards of thousands. In the tens of thousands.

I'm curious how there cannot be even a couple of dozen copies that did not make it, which had an accurate translation.

So..... seems to me that you have a problem.

Yep...

We have almost 6,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the Bible, along with 10's of thousands of other versions, such as Old Latin, Coptic, Syriac, etc. etc. And NONE of them read like the "Joseph Smith" corruption version. They all authenticate that the Bible we have today is accurate. Even Bart Ehrman, no friend of Christianity, admits to this.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
No, it is not speculation. The LDS church has a false God, a false Savior. Satsn's actual brother, and a false doctrine that saves no one and is NO gospel at all, as Paul wrote. LDS missionsries lead people to join the LDS church, where new converts will gradually learn what it REALLY teaches--and it is not what the Bible teaches us about salvation--and lead them away from the true Jesus Christ and salvation, great and free, to eternal darkness after death. That is a shameful thing to do. I am sorry, but it is. We have only to compare what the LDS church teaches with what the Bible teaches to sed that yhe Mormon church teaches false doctrines.
I love you like a sister, Bonnie. But you're basically violating you're standards 3-6 listed in your footer.
We've gone over this before. So much that it almost seems pointless to respond at this point.
It's really just a choice what narrative you choose to believe.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The claim Mormons make is “plain and precious things have been removed”.

Either you are pretending that the word "removed" is not there, or else you don't seem to understand what it means.

It’s all there, just not plain to cause multiple interpretations.

If parts were "removed", then they are NOT "all there", by DEFINITION.

You want to CHANGE the claim to something along the lines of, "plain parts became encrypted", or something of the sort. Not only is that not the original claim, but there is ZERO evidence for that.

So you think the original Bible was 100% unambiguous?!

The Bible also teaches God will do nothing save he revealer has his secrets unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:9) Was he lying then?

He also said, "It is finished".

You see, Steve called you perfectly.
You're not here to understand anything, or defend anything, you are simply here to "win".

That's why you threw back with, "was he lying then?"

The devil hasn’t prevailed against Gods church, there was just a falling away. (2 Thes 2:3)

That's ridiculous.
It's like saying, "Germany didn't lose the 2nd World War, there was just another winner."


Again, I ask...be humble, listen, use your own brain, not the naysayers narrative.

Translation: "Ignore the man behind the mirror".
Ignore reality, and continue to drink the Mormon Kool-Aid.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I love you like a sister, Bonnie. But you're basically violating you're standards 3-6 listed in your footer.
We've gone over this before. So much that it almost seems pointless to respond at this point.
It's really just a choice what narrative you choose to believe.

Yep... Make a bunch of false accusations and then run away without substantiating them.
Welcome to the Mormon church.... :(
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Fair enough.


Jesus didn’t blatantly misrepresent those that opposed him. Ask them questions, and then responded, usually in a way to help them see their own hypocrisy.
Except they did not see their hypocrisy as he saw it. they saw it as him being critically misrepresentative of their beliefs.

It’s not the Bible teachings that I’m upset about. It’s the blatant misrepresentation of my beliefs. Was Paul fond of Judaizers?
Judaizers aren't the issue here.
What you say are your beliefs are the issue.

I know what the article is saying. Mormonism is wrong because of:
1. (supposed) Polytheism
2. (supposed) The wrong Jesus (Satan’s brother)
3. (supposed) Works based salvation
4. The prophet Trump’s scripture (total lie)
5. Believing the Bible is not infallible (plausible)
6. Believing Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross (total lie)
7. You have to be in the temple to be with God (total lie)
I can understand a general misunderstanding of point 1-3 and 5. But three point are WAY out of bounds and blatant dishonesty.
If you believe they're blatantly dishonest, then you need to contact the author, and take it up with her.
Generally it’s the person that MAKES the claim that needs to substantiate it.
If someone falsely accuses you of murder on weak evidence, do you consider how you are the murderer or are you just afraid to think? See the problem?
I posted something from an academic, with experience I don't have.
You're the one who claims it's wrong, so you get to substantiate your claim.

No, I’m not here to win a debate, but to recognize truth.
I hope so. Because so far, you haven't shown truth. You've only criticized what she says is true.
Sound you’re asking me to defend my claim that your claim is a strawman?

First, the author doesn’t actually use our text to make her point. She takes the most extreme statement she can find.
that's on the author. I don't care what agrees. I care about the differences.
Because I learned a long, long, long time ago that I can only be one arc second off, and by the end of my voyage, be hundreds of miles off course from my destination.
And considering that Jesus said--- strive to enter the narrow gate, for narrow is the way that leads to life, but broad is the way that leads to death.... I'm not interested in learning too late that I took the wrong path.

1. Polytheism -

Points made:
* “As man is, God once was. As God now is, man will one day be.” - Came from Lorenzo Snow, who traced its authority from the King Follett Discourse, which isn’t in our Standard Works.
But is it true? Is the statement made by this Lorenzo Snow a true statement to the LDS belief?
I have to ask because according to what I'm finding--- he was a president of the LDS Church.... the 5th president. And since, as president, he'd be the church prophet, it seems to me to be a legitimization of the idea.
Lorenzo Snow was an American religious leader who served as the fifth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1898 until his death.
Thus, I see nothing false in the article's statement on this.


* “God is created” - Simply untrue. God has always existed (See D&C 93) this is Mormon cultural belief, but not actual doctrine.
* “Man will become God and have his own planet” - Also cultural speculation, not doctrine.
Ironic.... because every mormon friend I've ever had has told me that they will one day be given their own planet. So, are they lying? And if so, how do I know, and that it's not you who is now lying?
Why would they tell me a lie if they knew it to be false?
Sounds like Mormons can't make up their minds here. And while it could be argued that they were too young, and lacking knowledge of the nuances of Mormonism, that falls back on the Mormon church for sending out youth as missionaries. I.e., these people who I'm talking about--- they were all post mission's adults.

So, I'm not seeing a falsehood in the article's statement.

2. Jesus is Satan’s brother - Inasmuch as we all have spirits, and Satan has a spirit we’re spirit brothers. But the scriptures don’t actually say that Jesus was just a regular guy, he was distinguished from others that were “like unto God” (Abr. 3:24) and “beloved/Chosen from the beginning” (Moses 4:2)
So, according to your writings, this is true. Ok. This is not bible doctrine. Satan.... aka, Lucifer prior to his fall, as described in Ezekiel 28, and Isaiah 14.
Lucifer was a created being, and as Jesus is clearly shown to have created everything, Jesus created Lucifer (John 1:3, Col 1:16-19, Hebrews 1:2-4, Eph. 3:9). Thus, Lucifer is NOT Jesus' spirit brother.
So, the article is not incorrect here.

3. Works based Salvation - It by grace through faith we are saved. Works are evidence of our faith. (See 2 Ne 31 that explains Jesus obedience) If you believe OSAS, and salvation is give lip service to Jesus and live your merry life (which seems to be the attitude of the author) then that can be discussed in the Works vs Grace forum.
What is OSAS?
Once saved, always saved?
That's a fire insurance idea for people who don't want to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.
I've never bought it.

Romans 11 is pretty clear---

Rom 11:6 NKJV - And if by grace, then [it is] no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if [it is] of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Again, I don't see a clearly described issue demonstrating that the article is incorrect.

4. The prophet’s words trump scripture - blantant lie. ““It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.” - Joseph Fielding Smith
Curious, because she has some points made which are from LDS writings. So, Joe is a liar? Who's telling the truth?
Here's what I do see..... you've supplanted the bible as inferior to the book of Mormon, so the article is correct.


5. The Book of Mormon is considered preeminent to the Bible - Do we the Bible have some errors. Yes. We don’t believe it’s completely error free. Yet, what teaching in regards to salvation do we reject from the Bible? You won’t find one.
This is stating that the Book of Mormon is more true than the bible.
This is not false then, and the article is correct.

6. The Cross was an unnecessary act of murder. - This is just a blatant lie. I’d need evidence of this claim in order to dispute. We do believe Jesus suffered in Gethsemane to pay for our sins to overcome spiritual death, and to die on the cross to overcome physical death. The absolute irreverent disrespectful tone (ie. “He just needed to squeeze out some blood and call it good.”) is evidence of where the authors heart is.
* Mormons believe in Blood Atonement - Brigham Young was probably the only mormon that believed it, along with the Adam-God theory. It’s not found in the Standard Works.
Those two emboldened statements sound to me like a corroboration of the article's key point. She used the same words.
So, I'm not seeing where the article is wrong here.
You almost restated the article verbatim, legitimizing her statements.
If Mormons think that Jesus' payment for sin only occurred in the garden, where he sweat drops of blood, and the cross was to deal with physical death, then you've rejected his death on the cross for what Paul said in Romans and Galatians.

I.e., if justification with God could be any other way, Jesus died in vain.
It doesn't say--- he suffered in vain. It says--- he died in vain.



7. God doesn’t live in you, He lives at the Temple and you’ll need your recommend card to get in - again, a blatant lie. Each member is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands where they are told to “Receive the Holy Ghost”. (Read 2 Ne 32 on how we should continually live by the Holy Ghost.)
Baptism makes the covenant that expresses that we are WILLING to take upon the name of Christ. The temple is where it is sealed upon us by covenant. Again, not to “save” us, but to express our faith and to obey God’s commandments.
But that doesn't explain what your version means.

Who is the Holy Ghost?
What does the Holy Ghost do?
Is the Holy Ghost a force, or a person?
the Bible writers actually give descriptions of these things, so I'd expect a clearer description.



So there ya go. I’ve defended my ideas. Your turn.
I've already been to a Mormon Church. Not interested in becoming a Mormon. Never was actually.

I'll stick with the Jesus I'm already following.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Jesus didn’t blatantly misrepresent those that opposed him.

You haven't demonstrated any "misrepresentations" ("blatant" or otherwise), you have simply made empty accusations.


First, the author doesn’t actually use our text to make her point. She takes the most extreme statement she can find.

... which is why I responded with quotes from your church's official website, and your church's "Scripture", CONFIRMING the claims made in the article.

Points made:
* “As man is, God once was. As God now is, man will one day be.” - Came from Lorenzo Snow, who traced its authority from the King Follett Discourse, which isn’t in our Standard Works.

This is incredibly disingenuous, considering the HUNDREDS of times it's quoted on your church's official website, not to mention during "General Conference" (can't get more official than that.

Not only that, but here is an excerpt from an article in the LDS magazine, "Ensign" (which is also found on your church's official website:

“This is a doctrine which delighted President Snow, as it does all of us. Early in his ministry he received by direct, personal revelation the knowledge that (in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s language), ‘God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,’ and that men ‘have got to learn how to be Gods … the same as all Gods have done before.’

“After this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. …

“This same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.” (Address on Snow Day, given at Snow College, 14 May 1971, pp. 1, 3–4; italics added.)


It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today.


Now, until you start getting articles approved for publishing in one of the LDS Church's official magazines, I think that is a far more authoritative source than the opinion of an anonymous Mormon on the Internet.

3. Works based Salvation - It by grace through faith we are saved. Works are evidence of our faith. (See 2 Ne 31 that explains Jesus obedience) If you believe OSAS, and salvation is give lip service to Jesus and live your merry life (which seems to be the attitude of the author) then that can be discussed in the Works vs Grace forum.

Nobody here believes in "OSAS", so kindly lose the off-topic rabbit trails, okay?

5. The Book of Mormon is considered preeminent to the Bible - Do we the Bible have some errors. Yes. We don’t believe it’s completely error free. Yet, what teaching in regards to salvation do we reject from the Bible? You won’t find one.

1) Only one god exists;
2) Salvation by faith alone, not by works (dberrie is more accurate regarding Mormonism than you are);
3) polygamy being a sin;
4) marriage ending at death;
5) elders and deacons needing to be older, mature, married, experienced, and not immature teenagers
6) cessation of the priesthood and Temple ceremonies
7) cessation of prophets;

For starters....

Baptism makes the covenant that expresses that we are WILLING to take upon the name of Christ. The temple is where it is sealed upon us by covenant. Again, not to “save” us, but to express our faith and to obey God’s commandments.

So there ya go. I’ve defended my ideas. Your turn.

Nope.. All you did was go, "nuh-huh".
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No. We don’t.
Ok.

Be a humble listener. Do your own research, and use your brain.
Actually, I am using t he brain YHVH gave me.
So far, I'm not seeing anything of what you're saying to be true.
I see a lot of gaps, dismissed questions, and it's only adding to the idea that either you, or the LDS movement are frauds.
So.... if you really want me to do my own research, and use my own brain..... this is what I'm finding so far. It's not good for the LDS.

We don’t believe “Sola Scriptura” is Reformed Christianity does. Like the Catholics, we believe scripture is “materially sufficient” but not “formally sufficient”.
I have absolutely no idea what "formally sufficient" is supposed to mean. I am not, nor have I ever been a Catholic.
And those people with whom I associate, who once were catholics--- they all left the catholic church because they found their material practices to be based on totally unbiblical ideas.

The word of God is taught by the Spirit (John 14:26), scripture (per your argument), and the Church (Eph 4:11-13)

Because the priesthood is restored, it is the only church that can perform ordinances that can be bound on earth and in heaven. No other church can make that claim.
Ironic.... because from what I read in Peter's letter, quoting from Leviticus, and in Revelation we who follow Jesus are a kingdom of Priests to God.
So..... this idea you state here appears false to me.


Moreover, YOU don’t have to take my word for it. You can read the BoM and God will tell you himself it’s true.
Yeah, I had a friend tell me that once. Actually, several friends tell me that, once, each of them, over the course of decades.
The last one even gave me a copy. the nice big 4 text version, with a leather cover.

I've seen nothing that shows me that it's YHVH's book. I do think it's Joe's book. A book which was most likely a fraudulently obtained copy of a fictional novel written by a guy in the early 1800's, and stolen by a friend of Joe's who was working for the author at the time.

As a matter of fact, the guy who gave me what I can only guess is a $75.00 book, gave me his "Spirit-led" testimony one day. I decided to pray for him because it was really creepy. He started stumbling over himself, and lost his "anointing", and even said as much.

I found that odd..... it seems to me that if LDS really was of YHVH, then he wouldn't have stumbled, and lost it. It would've been established.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I love you like a sister, Bonnie. But you're basically violating you're standards 3-6 listed in your footer.
We've gone over this before. So much that it almost seems pointless to respond at this point.
It's really just a choice what narrative you choose to believe.
Thank you for your kind words. But I was simply responding to what you said in your last post, and explaining the measure I use to determine spiritual truth--the Bible..

I am not asking the same questions over and over again, ignoring the answers given, pretending I was never answered, and then asking the same question again. If I DO keep asking the same questions over and over again, it is because the person I addressed them to refused to answer them--like the questions I asked about Ps. 82. I asked a specific poster 4 questions about it, and they were ignored. But that is the ONLY time I keep repeating the questions.

I believe the Bible, not the BoM, the D and C, and Pearl book. I believe the Bible, not your false prophets and false Jesus and false Gospel, which is no gospel at all, as Paul had said.

And it is because I and Maggie and the others love you like a brother that we must speak the truth to you, painful as it may be. I used to have a signature that said, "If the truth hurts--it's working." Though the truth hurts, it will also set you free--free to believe in true Jesus Christ of the Bible, and serve Him in spirit and in truth--and not a false church and false God. May the Great HS open your eyes to the truth. God bless you.
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-known member
From the LDS church's official website:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints."



Also from the LDS church's official website:

"On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"
I had heard for years that the LDS taught Jesus and Lucifer were half-brothers. That says they’re brothers. 🤨 Sadly, many don’t know that Lucifer isn’t a pre-fallen Satan, but referring to the king of Babylon.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Except they did not see their hypocrisy as he saw it.
Hypocrisy is usually hard to identify in ourselves.

they saw it as him being critically misrepresentative of their beliefs.
Where do you get that impression?

Judaizers aren't the issue here.
What you say are your beliefs are the issue.
I'm referring to the behavior, not the teaching specifically. Judaizers mischaracterized Paul's beliefs.

If you believe they're blatantly dishonest, then you need to contact the author, and take it up with her.
I posted something from an academic, with experience I don't have.

that's on the author. I don't care what agrees. I care about the differences.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you posted the article not to make a point, but to see what Mormons think abou t it? If so, then I misunderstood, and I apologize.


Because I learned a long, long, long time ago that I can only be one arc second off, and by the end of my voyage, be hundreds of miles off course from my destination.
And considering that Jesus said--- strive to enter the narrow gate, for narrow is the way that leads to life, but broad is the way that leads to death.... I'm not interested in learning too late that I took the wrong path.
I love that analogy. I agree.

But is it true? Is the statement made by this Lorenzo Snow a true statement to the LDS belief?
I have to ask because according to what I'm finding--- he was a president of the LDS Church.... the 5th president. And since, as president, he'd be the church prophet, it seems to me to be a legitimization of the idea.

Thus, I see nothing false in the article's statement on this.
Well, the statements that statement that all men's teachings are measured against the standard works is from the 10th president of the Church. So, how is it determined who's speaking the truth? Do we just accept all statements from all leaders and think that statements just cancel each other out? How does that work exactly? If we appeal to authority for one leader to legitimize a statement, then we need to give auhtority to all leaders, otherwise you're cherry-picking evidence. I maintain the belief that truth doesn't contradict itself, and there is a method to determine what's true, and what's not. Even Joseph Smith himself stated "a prophet is a prophet when acting as such."


Ironic.... because every mormon friend I've ever had has told me that they will one day be given their own planet. So, are they lying? And if so, how do I know, and that it's not you who is now lying?
Why would they tell me a lie if they knew it to be false?
I can't speak for your mormon friends, but I'd love to talk to them.
I would ask them where they find that in scripture? I would ask them if I did not believe it, is my salvation in jeopardy? I would ask them the same questions you're asking me about how God can be created. I would ask them "Who's God's God?" and if Jesus atonement is infinite, or does each Godly parent has their own Savior or do people living on other planets accept Jesus' atonement performed on another planet? And why it is fair they they get their own planet, but Jesus (who did all the work) is stuck working for Dad? Like, it just doesn't make any logical sense.

As far as your friends plausibly lying - I don't believe their not being dishonest. But, Mormonism can be a cultural bubble, where few people don't challenge their beliefs. Many go on missions, etc. because that's what's expected of them. Cultural norms don't need to be challenged, and people usually take the path of least resistance, especially when challenging something that could affect your relationships of your family and friends. But when push comes to shove, and you make them think about it, then they will say 'No, it's really not something that's all that important, and it's just a mystery and 'deep-doctrine.'

If I'm lying - Go ahead - believe I'm lying. Don't take my word for it. All manuals/scriptures/teachings are posted online! You can even see what your mormon friends will be taught on Sunday (probably in their homes). Look at ALL of it. Tell me how many things tie back to getting your own planet.



Sounds like Mormons can't make up their minds here. And while it could be argued that they were too young, and lacking knowledge of the nuances of Mormonism, that falls back on the Mormon church for sending out youth as missionaries. I.e., these people who I'm talking about--- they were all post mission's adults.

So, I'm not seeing a falsehood in the article's statement.
Not all Mormons can speak for the church authoritatively. Seriously, go to the local ward, talk to the bishop, then the stake president. See if people are excommunicated for people believing they will NOT get their own planet. I'm telling you - it's not doctrine. That doesn't mean people don't have their own speculations and opinions.



So, according to your writings, this is true. Ok. This is not bible doctrine. Satan.... aka, Lucifer prior to his fall, as described in Ezekiel 28, and Isaiah 14.
Lucifer was a created being, and as Jesus is clearly shown to have created everything, Jesus created Lucifer (John 1:3, Col 1:16-19, Hebrews 1:2-4, Eph. 3:9). Thus, Lucifer is NOT Jesus' spirit brother.
So, the article is not incorrect here.
No, I was giving credence how it could be misunderstood to belive that Jesus is Satan's brother: God is the Father of Spirits. (Hebrews 12:9)
I then stated how Jesus was distinguished differently from other spirits in the pre-mortal life. There is no record of Jesus spiritual creation. In fact, Mormons believe that man's spirit was also not created. (D&C 93:29)
We believe Jesus is Jehovah who created all things. We cite John 1:3 in the proclamation the Living Christ. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...christ-the-testimony-of-the-apostles?lang=eng
Col 1:19, Hebrews 1:2, and Ephesians 3:9 all indicate that things were created by the Son, and not the Father. In my opinion, that causes more problems for those that believe in the Trinity than for Mormons.
In the Book of Mormon, it actually explains how Jesus is more like our Father than our brother (Mosiah 5:7)


What is OSAS?
Once saved, always saved?
That's a fire insurance idea for people who don't want to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.
I've never bought it.
I'm glad we're in agreement then.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Romans 11 is pretty clear---

Rom 11:6 NKJV - And if by grace, then [it is] no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if [it is] of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.


Again, I don't see a clearly described issue demonstrating that the article is incorrect.

Ok, then. Let's go to the article:

"In brief, Mormons are not assured of salvation through the cross (which they do not recognize as a necessary work) and do not believe it is free. They will say they believe salvation is through grace, but what they mean is this: You will find out if you have earned that gracious salvation after you die and face judgement. This will be based on an assessment of your works and if your works are deemed to be worthy enough, you then receive grace to be granted salvation.

Salvation, for Mormons is not free. It is earned. Same words, very different meaning.

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, former President of the LDS Church, p. 206)."

Now I'll break it down into individual statements:

Mormons are not assured of salvation through the cross - This is confusion between justification/sanctification
When you put your trust in Jesus Christ - you are justified (aka. "receive a remission of your sins").
Mosiah 4:11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.
Similar statements are in (2 Ne 31:17, Alma 7:6, Alma 30:16, 3 Ne 30:2; D&C 33:11; AoF # 4)

salvation through the cross (which they do not recognize as a necessary work) Pure fabrication. I need evidence to be able to refute it.

what they mean is this: You will find out if you have earned that gracious salvation after you die and face judgement. This is because when you've accepted Christ, you must continue to walk in His ways. Christians would say if you don't turn away from your worldly ways "you were never really saved to begin with". We refer to as "enduring to the end in faith" (D&C 20:25,29)

an assessment of your works and if your works are deemed to be worthy enough There are no "works" that save us. The only work worthy enough is accepting Jesus as our Savior witnessed by our baptism, and renewing our covenant weekly by partaking the sacrament. See Moroni 8:25-26: 25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

the Kimball quote - compare with James 2:14-26 True Belief (living faith) requires action.

Curious, because she has some points made which are from LDS writings. So, Joe is a liar? Who's telling the truth?
Here's what I do see..... you've supplanted the bible as inferior to the book of Mormon, so the article is correct.
There is 1 point made in this subheading. That's it.
“There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.” That has nothing to do with the taking the prophet's word over scripture. The scriptures align with God's word, not contradict it.
Can you be saved it you accept Jesus, but not Peter? What if you reject Paul? Still saved? Jesus said baptism is essential (John 3:5; Mark 16:16) If Joseph Smith holds the same authority Peter had, and becoming part of the body of Christ is necessary via the gates of baptism, can you reject Peter's commission and expect to be saved? (See Matt 10:40-42)
If Paul meant what he said "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" then there's only one way. We can't pick and choose.

This is stating that the Book of Mormon is more true than the bible.
This is not false then, and the article is correct.
The article implies that we obey the BoM over the bible. It's a false dilemma. There is never the Bom vs the Bible contradiction.


Those two emboldened statements sound to me like a corroboration of the article's key point. She used the same words.
So, I'm not seeing where the article is wrong here.
You almost restated the article verbatim, legitimizing her statements.
If Mormons think that Jesus' payment for sin only occurred in the garden, where he sweat drops of blood, and the cross was to deal with physical death, then you've rejected his death on the cross for what Paul said in Romans and Galatians.

I.e., if justification with God could be any other way, Jesus died in vain.
It doesn't say--- he suffered in vain. It says--- he died in vain.
You are clearly going to see what you want to see.
Where did I ever say "Jesus' payment for sin only occurred in the garden"? You believe Jesus didn't need to suffer? All he had to do was die? What a rediculous claim! Based on that logic, how can you have a sacrifice without a sacrfice? You believe Jesus felt every single one of our sorrews, griefs, and burdens only through physical suffering? Is that it? Mental/Emotional anguish - No big deal? He didn't plead with his disciples to stay away and strengthen him? Why did he pray at all? I know these are all rediculous questions - only to illustrate how far-fetched you contrasted our beliefs.

But that doesn't explain what your version means.

Who is the Holy Ghost?
What does the Holy Ghost do?
Is the Holy Ghost a force, or a person?
the Bible writers actually give descriptions of these things, so I'd expect a clearer description.
That is actually a change of topic. The point the article made is that "God can only be with us if we're in temples" I proved that wrong. If you want to know about the Holy Ghost see here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng


I've already been to a Mormon Church. Not interested in becoming a Mormon. Never was actually.
I'll stick with the Jesus I'm already following.
I didn't ask you to join, I asked you to defend you're ideas, which you defer to the author. Still unwilling to take responsibliy for your ideas. You appealed ignorance, and now you can't prove my points wrong, or prove that I'm lying. So, you can no longer be justified to throw your hands up as you slander my beliefs. It's up to you and your conscience as far as I'm concerned. If a person continues to spread lies from a liar, does God hold them guiltless? I don't think so.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Thank you for your kind words. But I was simply responding to what you said in your last post, and explaining the measure I use to determine spiritual truth--the Bible..

I am not asking the same questions over and over again, ignoring the answers given, pretending I was never answered, and then asking the same question again.

I believe the Bible, not the BoM, the D and C, and Pearl book. I believe the Bible, not your false prophets and false Jesus and false Gospel, which is no gospel as Paul had said.

And it is because I and Maggie and the others love you like a brother that we must speak the truth to you, painful as it may be. I used to have a signature that said, "If the truth hurts--it's working." Though the truth hurts, it will also set you free--free to believe in true Jesus Christ of the Bible, and serve Him in spirit and in truth--and not a false church and false God. May the Great HS open your eyes to the truth. God bless you.
Yes. I agree. You use an alternative source for authority to determine what's true.

I don't believe in "sola scriptura". The bible itself does not teach "sola scriptura".

You keep making the same claim that Jesus is Satan's brother. Regardless of what i say, or the sources I show you, or the explanations, etc. etc. etc. You'll continue to "seemingly" turned a blind eye, and continue with your narrative. When "Satan's brother" is no where found in the standard works. I gotta say, it's a little frustrating.

Yet, I believe your sincerity and your purpose. I'm glad you share your witness, but it feels like all my words are tuned out on the sole basis that I'm a mormon. Mormon = brainwashed = doens't really know what he's talking about = we can just ignore him. I mean, we either want to look at the facts or we don't.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Can you be saved it you accept Jesus, but not Peter?

Of course.

Jesus said baptism is essential (John 3:5; Mark 16:16)

Wrong again.
There is ZERO mention of "baptism" in John 3:5.
And Mark 16:16 NOWHERE says that baptism is "essential".




If Joseph Smith holds the same authority Peter had, and becoming part of the body of Christ is necessary via the gates of baptism, can you reject Peter's commission and expect to be saved? (See Matt 10:40-42)

Of course.

The article implies that we obey the BoM over the bible. It's a false dilemma. There is never the Bom vs the Bible contradiction.

Then why does your AoF say "as far as it is translated correctly" as a qualifier for the Bible, but NOT for the BoM?

You are clearly going to see what you want to see.

You're describing Mormons.

Where did I ever say "Jesus' payment for sin only occurred in the garden"? You believe Jesus didn't need to suffer?

Of course He didn't need to suffer.
The atonement is based on SHED BLOOD, not on "suffering".

All he had to do was die?

And shed blood.
Yes.

What a rediculous claim!

Sorry, but feigned indignation is NOT a valid argument.
(Even if you could spell it right....)

I didn't ask you to join, I asked you to defend you're ideas, which you defer to the author. Still unwilling to take responsibliy for your ideas.

They're not "his" ideas.
They're the author's ideas.

You appealed ignorance, and now you can't prove my points wrong, or prove that I'm lying. So, you can no longer be justified to throw your hands up as you slander my beliefs.

This is written communication, so it would be "libel", not "slander".

And it would only be "slander" if his words (1) were false (which you haven't demonstrated), and (2) injured your reputation (which you haven't demonstrated).

It's up to you and your conscience as far as I'm concerned. If a person continues to spread lies from a liar, does God hold them guiltless? I don't think so.

Then Mormons should stop lying.
But you haven't demonstrated ANY "lie" from SteveB.
So maybe you should cease the false accusations?
 
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