A Mormon tries to attack "Faith Alone"

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Spending more time with me won't change the fact faith alone theology--and the testimony of the Savior--are not compatible:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can faith alone theology be true--when it excludes all works in obtaining life? Faith alone is unwittingly pitting themselves against the testimony of the Savior.


Bump for Theo--or anyone
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No, they and Mormons are quite different in their beliefs. I did not say anything about denominations. The last time i checked, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, not by belonging to this or that denomination. But Mormonism is completely outside the pale of true Christianity.

Says the lady who can't even comport her theology to the Biblical witness:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

<sigh>

I'm sorry that you're apparently so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to try to goad people into arguing with you. I feel sorry for you, truly I do.

If I do not respond to your posts, it's because I made a conscious choice to not respond, considering it a waste of my valuable time. So "bumping" for me is not going to change my mind, it is only a form of harassment to stalk people like that. But that's what I expect from Mormons.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
<sigh>

I'm sorry that you're apparently so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to try to goad people into arguing with you. I feel sorry for you, truly I do.

If I do not respond to your posts, it's because I made a conscious choice to not respond, considering it a waste of my valuable time. So "bumping" for me is not going to change my mind, it is only a form of harassment to stalk people like that. But that's what I expect from Mormons.

I was thinking it was you who stalked me--and you who started this very thread--asking for the argument. You seem to have more than you asked for now.

So--please answer my retort:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can faith alone theology be true--when it excludes all works in obtaining life? Faith alone is unwittingly pitting themselves against the testimony of the Savior.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I was thinking it was you who stalked me--and you who started this very thread--asking for the argument. You seem to have more than you asked for now.

You are misremembering.

You were constantly trying to start OFF-TOPIC threads about "faith alone" in the Mormonism forum, as an excuse to derail discussion away from Mormonism.

I simply moved YOUR post here and responded to it.
I have no further obligation than that.

How can faith alone theology be true--when it excludes all works in obtaining life? Faith alone is unwittingly pitting themselves against the testimony of the Savior.

Again, I'm not the only one who has told you that you are MISREPRESENTING "faith alone".
But as long as you continue to MISREPRESENT it, further discussion is pointless.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Says the lady who can't even comport her theology to the Biblical witness:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
That is false and you know it, dberrie, don't you? I know witnesses who know I have responded to you on James 2:24 many times over the past 8 years, both on the Mormonism board and Lutheran board--want to see some of the posts I have archived about it? Where we have thoroughly reconciled James 2:24 with all of the other verses that say we are saved by grace through faith? Other Christians answered you about this, haven't they? Theo, Bob, organgrinder, Josaih, BJBear, TertiumQuid...want to see some of their posts that I archived?


And how about comporting YOUR theology to Luke 7:50, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4, John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 10:9-10, Titus 3:5, Hebrews 7:25...?

So, yes the Lady DOES comport her theology to the Biblical witness--many times over! And I have proof!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are misremembering.

You were constantly trying to start OFF-TOPIC threads about "faith alone" in the Mormonism forum, as an excuse to derail discussion away from Mormonism.

I simply moved YOUR post here and responded to it.
I have no further obligation than that.



Again, I'm not the only one who has told you that you are MISREPRESENTING "faith alone".
But as long as you continue to MISREPRESENT it, further discussion is pointless.
This is certainly true, Theo. I am witness to that.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
No, they and Mormons are quite different in their beliefs. I did not say anything about denominations. The last time i checked, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, not by belonging to this or that denomination. But Mormonism is completely outside the pale of true Christianity.
So are all the other belief systems outside true Christianity. A Christian is Christ like no different from that what Jesus had in the Father anointed of God.

And Mormon is a denomination , belief system, just as all these others are. And they all have their standards for salvation.

Gods Spirit manifest in you having the same faith Jesus had is Gods salvation to walk as He walks in His same light, same Spirit, perfect even as He is perfect. It is easy to say you are saved by grace through faith but it is another matter to actually have the faith of Christ that is Gods salvation.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
That is false and you know it, dberrie, don't you? I know witnesses who know I have responded to you on James 2:24 many times over the past 8 years,

James 2:24 defies faith alone theology--regardless of how many times one answers it:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Could you give us another instance where "faith alone" occurs in the entire Biblical text?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
James 2:24 defies faith alone theology--regardless of how many times one answers it:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Could you give us another instance where "faith alone" occurs in the entire Biblical text?
Works result by faith. Faith of mind drives one to do the work. If there is no faith there no works, if there is no works there is no faith.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
James 2:24 defies faith alone theology--regardless of how many times one answers it:

Here is an example of another poster who denies that this is a "discussion" forum.
For him, it is simply a "proclamation" forum, and HE is the one who gets to "proclaim" what is so.

And nobody's allowed to disagree.

After all, in his own words, anyone who disagrees with him is wrong "regardless of how many times one answers it".


I have a challenge for you, dberrie, and I know you will refuse to accept it, but I include it just for transparency for other readers her. And it plays into what a poster talked about in the A&C forum about whether or not people can see and understand the opposing view.


Can you summarize for us what OUR response is to James 2:24?
(Yeah, I didn't think you could...)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I was thinking it was you who stalked me--and you who started this very thread--asking for the argument. You seem to have more than you asked for now.

Let me get this straight....

YOU are the one who keeps responding to me, and asking me questions (while ignoring my responses).

YOU are the one who keeps "<Bumping> for Theo".

Yet you think I'M the one stalking YOU?!


When you stop "bumping for Theo", maybe you might have a case for objecting to the accusation of you stalking me... But until then, you're guilty.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Let me get this straight....

YOU are the one who keeps responding to me, and asking me questions (while ignoring my responses).

YOU are the one who keeps "<Bumping> for Theo".

Yet you think I'M the one stalking YOU?!
You are the one who started this thread.

So--please answer my retort:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can faith alone theology be true--when it excludes all works in obtaining life?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are the one who started this thread.

Um, it was a CONTINUATION of YOUR thread that YOU started in the wrong forum.
Nice try... NOT.

So--please answer my retort:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can faith alone theology be true--when it excludes all works in obtaining life?

I've answered it ten million times already.
You simply say, "nuh-HUH", and then repeat your same lame argument.

Why don't YOU tell us how I've explained the answer to you those last ten million times?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I've answered it ten million times already.
You simply say, "nuh-HUH", and then repeat your same lame argument.

Why don't YOU tell us how I've explained the answer to you those last ten million times?
The same way you answer it here--"I've answered it ten million times already."

That seems to be the pat answer.

Care to engage the scripture itself--and explain for us how you collate the testimony of the Savior with your theology?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The same way you answer it here--"I've answered it ten million times already."

That seems to be the pat answer.

And you would be wrong.

Here is how I've answered it:


The fact that you do not know this, demonstrates that you simply IGNORE all our responses to you, and that it is therefore a waste of time to continue.

Care to engage the scripture itself--and explain for us how you collate the testimony of the Savior with your theology?

Already did.
Right here:

 

Bonnie

Super Member
But
The same way you answer it here--"I've answered it ten million times already."

That seems to be the pat answer.

Care to engage the scripture itself--and explain for us how you collate the testimony of the Savior with your theology?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
But it is the truth, though exaggerated...Theo, I, OG, BJBear, Bob, and others over the years HAVE explained how we collate faith alone with James 2:24--not once but MANY TIMES--haven't we? If you deny this, then that means you are wilfully blinding yourself to the truth, doesn't it? I have archived some of these posts--would you like to see some, yet again?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
But it is the truth, though exaggerated...
Theo, I, OG, BJBear, Bob, and others over the years HAVE explained how we collate faith alone with James 2:24--not once but MANY TIMES--haven't we?

The whole claim by the faith alone is exaggerated. The only time I have seen any explanation--is just what you and Theo have posted here--nothing.

You aren't thinking--"I've already explained that"--is an explanation?

Care to engage the actual scripture--and tell us how you comport this to faith alone theology?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The whole claim by the faith alone is exaggerated. The only time I have seen any explanation--is just what you and Theo have posted here--nothing.

Let the record show that this poster thinks the following comprehensive exegesis is "nothing":








We've addressed this SO many times for you in the past.
But you simply IGNORE it.

Just like you ignore the following:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Just like you ignore the following:

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Just like you ignore the following:

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.





So for the millionth time, let's address your proof-text where you take an interpretation that CONTRADICTS the rest of the Bible:


James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

As Jeff Durbin likes to point out, this passage is NOT about "faith vs. works". This passage is about "living faith" vs. "dead faith".

Here he gives and example of someone who CLAIMS to have faith. That faith may be true, or it may be false. The fact that he "does not have works" shows that the faith is false. He then says, "can THAT faith save him" (the word "that" which is found in the ESV is justified, because the word "faith" is articulated, specifying a particular kind of faith, since it has the definite article, referring back to the previous mention of "faith".

"Can that faith save him?" is a rhetorical question, and the obvious answer is "no, it can't". But it's not because he has a true "faith", but simply hasn't added "works" to it. It is because he has a "dead faith" (v.17), instead of a "living" faith.

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If one truly has faith, they will not simply give "well-wishing". They will actually DO something to help the needy. True faith WORKS.

In fact, I believe John MacArthur has written a book called, "Faith Works", which you would do well to read. For that matter, you would do well to read the two chapters on "Faith" in C.S. Lewis' famous work, "Mere Christianity".

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

"I will show you my faith BY my works".

Works are not simply something you "add" to your faith, they are something that DEMONSTRATES the faith you already have. They are the FRUITS of a living faith, the EVIDENCE of a living faith, the JUSTIFICATION of a proclamation of faith.

You can tell if someone has faith BY their works.
If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, they don't have "faith", and their claim is false. If they had a true faith, a living faith, that faith would RESULT in good works.

Works aren't something you "add" to faith.
Works are something that FLOWS from a true, living faith.

But works aren't "required" for salvation (which is "not by works", Eph. 2:9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.), they are something that provide EVIDENCE for faith, which faith saves.

19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Now James gets into the double meaning of "pistis". It can mean "faith" or "trust", or it can simply mean, "acknowledge something as true", which is how the demons believe. A faith or trust WILL result in good works (as explained above).

20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The term "justified" can sometimes mean "saved" in Biblical context, but it can also men "vindicated". And this is how it is being here. James began this narrative with someone who simply CLAIMED to have faith, but did not have works. And James explained how works DEMONSTRATE a true faith ("I will SHOW you my faith BY my works"). So when we see works, they JUSTIFY the man's claim to having faith.


So we go back to the "not by works" passages (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.) which you will not touch with a ten-foot pole.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Christ is the judge, right now, not just ultimately. Man is too blind to judge, regardless how ‘saved’ he judges himself to be.
You know very well if you follow the way of Jesus Christ to walk as He walks in His same light as jesus did to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Judgment is not up to God at all, He has clearly stated who you should be like Him and in His same image. Judgment is your own and you know very well if you follow the way of Jesus Christ to be as He is and walk as He walks to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. That judgment is already made and you know the verdict already.
 
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