A non rational understanding of 1Cor 2:14

TomFL

Well-known member
So after the man does this believing he's rewarded with eternal life for doing so. Got it! 👍🏼
Its grace . There is no merit in faith

In any case what does this state

John 3:14-16 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

do you have a problem with scripture
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You already know the biblical answer to this, one you reject; that faith comes from God. You deem that unfair.

Thus: So after the man does this believing he's rewarded with eternal life for doing so. Got it! 👍🏼
Comes how ?

It is not from having received the Spirit for one needs faith before one can receive the spirit.

John 3:14-16 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

and it is not from regeneration for again faith precedes new life

So deal with it scripturally not by a theological statement you really have not described
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm saying what you are not...that God's Spirit personally relates to a person by coming upon them and communicating to them, reasoning within a person, taking a person who is dead in sin and practicing it quite well, and then in a moment the person is a new person with a new life, living to God by faith..."The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

The Spirit of the Lord was upon for many years reasoning with me, providing the substance for faith, reproving me, not in condemnation but in loving truth with a promise of a new life, all the while I was practicing sin quite well. Much to amazement of all who knew the old Joe, when they seen the new Joe the next morning they could not believe it...John 3:8, It is by the unseen and ever vigilant Spirit of God creating a new heart and substance of faith inside a person that draws a person to Christ, and when the the Spirit has prepared the heart, the Word produces the intended result, a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Tom, you can beat the drum of your gospel only doctrine that God's Spirit is not necessary, or whatever you want to label it, but it is not biblical nor gospel. It is the Spirit of God that gives life, and without Him no one could earnestly say that Jesus is Lord....How do you reconcile that with your gospel only claim?

IMO, you are treading in dangerous water by discounting the Spirit of God and His work inside humanity.

And it raises a huge question to me: Are you really saved? I ask because everyone that I know who is saved testifies about God's Spirit relating to them personally, being the cause of their faith and birth in Christ. It is something experienced, and known beforehand or afterwards.

God Bless
So no one can get saved reading scripture ?

Scripture is not the Spirit 's voice ?

Not saying the Spirit cannot communicate in other ways but that all of God's means are sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Its grace . There is no merit in faith

In any case what does this state

John 3:14-16 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

do you have a problem with scripture
So after the man does this believing he's rewarded with eternal life for doing so. Got it! 👍🏼

Congrats, you did it Tom!
 

Simpletruther

Active member
That is Calvinism, but it is not Bible. There are times when God has His reasons to harden hearts and dull minds, but he does not do it to everyone all the time.
But consider this. If God hardens a heart that means that before the hardening, they were not hardened.
No the Bible says it. Or do you deny the need formGod is a spiritual issue? Or thst you were a natural man apart from God?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Spirit
The text speaks of having the Spirit

1 Corinthians 2:11-12 (E)
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. - 1 Corinthians 2:11-12

If one is to know what is in the mind of God one must have received the Spirit

To receive the Spirit however one must first have faith. You cannot do that is you cannot understand the gospel
This is why regeneration is necessary first...

even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. - John 14:17

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14


spiritually discerned... not Spiritually discerned

Do you want to deal with the that objection now >

The objection is your contradiction of...

John 7:39 (ESV)
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? - 1 John 5:4-5

“receiving the Spirit” is not the same as “Regeneration of natural mans dead spirit”!

 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
No the Bible says it. Or do you deny the need formGod is a spiritual issue? Or thst you were a natural man apart from God?
What I deny is the implication of Calvinism that God is weak and unable to communicate truth to His own creation unless He changes them first.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This is why regeneration is necessary first...

even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. - John 14:17

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14


spiritually discerned... not Spiritually discerned



The objection is your contradiction of...

John 7:39 (ESV)
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? - 1 John 5:4-5

“receiving the Spirit” is not the same as “Regeneration of natural mans dead spirit”!

1 Cor 2 is speaking to people who have already been regenerated, So yes, you are right. It is directed to Christians who need to grow and mature and learn the voice of their saviour.
But 1Cor 2 is NOT speaking of evangelism, not addressing how people respond to the good news. Calvinism tries to take this chapter and camouflage what it is about to make it support reformed theology.
 

civic

Well-known member
What I deny is the implication of Calvinism that God is weak and unable to communicate truth to His own creation unless He changes them first.
Well of course you do as a pelagian who denies original sin, depravity and adhere to the false teaching that all men are born with a god given faith. And in doing so like many other doctrines which you deny you must change the meaning of spiritual and natural in 1 Cor 2 to support your false teachings concerning the natural and spiritual man.

You do this all the time with several false doctrines you hold dear.

1- Mediator
2- man- body,soul and spirit
3- Resurrection
4- a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have
5- son of man
6- Incarnation
7- One God and One Mediator
8- original sin
9- depravity
10- kenosis

hope this helps !!!
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
1 Cor 2 is speaking to people who have already been regenerated, So yes, you are right. It is directed to Christians who need to grow and mature and learn the voice of their saviour.
I agree which means, in verse 14, he is not referring to them as actual “natural people”... verse 14 is contrasting those who are “natural people” with those who are acting like unregenerate “natural people”! “infants in Christ”

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human? - 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

But 1Cor 2 is NOT speaking of evangelism, not addressing how people respond to the good news.

I also agree... but because of the contrast in verse 14 we are give insight into how those who are unregenerate “natural persons” respond when speaking of evangelism.

Calvinism tries to take this chapter and camouflage what it is about to make it support reformed theology.

No... Calvinism simply recognizes that verse 14 is not referring to them as actual “natural” but a contrast (blanket statement) between them acting as “natural” and those who actually are “natural” unregenerate!


13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Contrast...
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (He’s not calling them actual natural persons here)

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human? - 1 Corinthians 3:1-4...

...Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? - 1 Corinthians 3:16


Is he not here referring to the same ones he is addressing in verses 1-4 above? He’s calling them out on their behavior... not calling them unregenerate “natural persons”! He’s simply telling them to stop acting like something you are not!
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-known member
That's another subject. Merited grace is in fact a false gospel.
Which is really no gospel at all. What he avers, because his Sensei avers the exact same thing, is you do this and God does that. It’s a “Put’er there!” handshake deal. They helped God save them. Which is the thrust of their belief; “God helps those who help themselves.” Sadly, they're blind to this. They will just come back acting grown up and all by saying “Nuh uh!”
 

Simpletruther

Active member
Calvinists teach that God must first regenerate you before He can communicate understandably with you.
Incorrect. God can communicate perfectly understandably. The problem is with the natural man that surpasses the truth in unrighteousness. And it’s not that they can’t understand intellectually. Even Demons and atheists can understand the gospel intellectually. It’s they can’t discern the beauty of it. They don’t want it or suppress it all together.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Incorrect. God can communicate perfectly understandably. The problem is with the natural man that surpasses the truth in unrighteousness. And it’s not that they can’t understand intellectually. Even Demons and atheists can understand the gospel intellectually. It’s they can’t discern the beauty of it. They don’t want it or suppress it all together.
They don't understand the beauty of it? What verse are you talking about?
You are saying that can intellectually understand. but something about it they cannot appreciate?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Incorrect. God can communicate perfectly understandably. The problem is with the natural man that surpasses the truth in unrighteousness. And it’s not that they can’t understand intellectually. Even Demons and atheists can understand the gospel intellectually. It’s they can’t discern the beauty of it. They don’t want it or suppress it all together.
Exactly. "Even the demons believe"
 
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