# A Practical Understanding Of Libertarian Freewillism!

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Mr. Flowers describes Libertarian Freewillism like this...

“Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice of x or y is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or against any or all influences such that there is no determining factor for his particular choice outside the own function of his will, which is mysterious and beyond full comprehension.”

Note “The will is free to choose for or... against... any or all influences” including “the man’s own character, personality, and preferences”!

This means man may “prefer” Christ but “will” could “mysteriously” “choose against” that “preference”!

Libertarian Freewillism is like a random chance dice game!

I like to call it Flip-a-coin-ism because when you exhaust all possibilities that could determine the outcome, in this system, they are reduced to mere “influences” and because of that you are still left with a random chance outcome!

To understand this description consider...

If everything outside of the will is merely an influencer and what goes on within the will is a “mystery” then it could be explained like this...

Imagine you have two options, x and y, and the will create a 2 sided coin! On one side is x and on the other side is y!

X|Y

Then will considers an influence like “desire” and it happens to be for option x. Now the coin turns into a 3 sided die... with 2 sides for x and one side for y. Still random chance with slightly better odds for x.

X|X|Y

Then the “influence” of “personality” is considered and it is for y, so we now have a 4 sided die... with 2 sides x and 2 sides y. Practically back to a coin again with the odds.

X|X|Y|Y

This keeps going until all influences are considered and at the end you may, for example, end up with a 20 sided die with 9 sides for x and 11 sides for y... but still random!

X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|

Inside the will is now the creation of this complex die and the die is thrown by the will and whichever of the 20 sides it finally lands on is the option chosen!

Maybe this time it “mysteriously” lands on y, but if you notice above this is not what “desire” had influenced... therefore since desire is a mere influence, and not a cause, this is what you may get according to Libertarian Freewillism!

Sorry “desire”... better LUCK next time!!!

In this system one may desire Christ... but remember “desire” is only an “influence”, and not a cause, therefore “will” may perhaps “randomly” choose against desire and there is nothing God can do about it without violating your so called “libertarian freewillism”!

Man centered system! Flip-a-coin-ism!

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
Mr. Flowers describes Libertarian Freewillism like this...

“Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice of x or y is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or against any or all influences such that there is no determining factor for his particular choice outside the own function of his will, which is mysterious and beyond full comprehension.”

Note “The will is free to choose for or... against... any or all influences” including “the man’s own character, personality, and preferences”!

This means man may “prefer” Christ but “will” could “mysteriously” “choose against” that “preference”!

Libertarian Freewillism is like a random chance dice game!

I like to call it Flip-a-coin-ism because when you exhaust all possibilities that could determine the outcome, in this system, they are reduced to mere “influences” and because of that you are still left with a random chance outcome!

To understand this description consider...

If everything outside of the will is merely an influencer and what goes on within the will is a “mystery” then it could be explained like this...

Imagine you have two options, x and y, and the will create a 2 sided coin! On one side is x and on the other side is y!

X|Y

Then will considers an influence like “desire” and it happens to be for option x. Now the coin turns into a 3 sided die... with 2 sides for x and one side for y. Still random chance with slightly better odds for x.

X|X|Y

Then the “influence” of “personality” is considered and it is for y, so we now have a 4 sided die... with 2 sides x and 2 sides y. Practically back to a coin again with the odds.

X|X|Y|Y

This keeps going until all influences are considered and at the end you may, for example, end up with a 20 sided die with 9 sides for x and 11 sides for y... but still random!

X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|

Inside the will is now the creation of this complex die and the die is thrown by the will and whichever of the 20 sides it finally lands on is the option chosen!

Maybe this time it “mysteriously” lands on y, but if you notice above this is not what “desire” had influenced... therefore since desire is a mere influence, and not a cause, this is what you may get according to Libertarian Freewillism!

Sorry “desire”... better LUCK next time!!!

In this system one may desire Christ... but remember “desire” is only an “influence”, and not a cause, therefore “will” may perhaps “randomly” choose against desire and there is nothing God can do about it without violating your so called “libertarian freewillism”!

Man centered system! Flip-a-coin-ism!
Leighton Flowers gives a general definition of LFW and does not specify difference between a hard and soft LFW though he holds to a soft view

Kenneth Keathley in his book Salvation and Sovereignty give a fuller view of a soft Libertarian free will

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism

Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate origin of decisions.

Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.

The principle of alternative possibilities (AP) At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing is genuinely available.

The reality of will-setting moments A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.

The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the freedom of integrity).

Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Leighton Flowers gives a general definition of LFW and does not specify difference between a hard and soft LFW though he holds to a soft view
“Hard” or “Soft” doesn’t matter! When you remove all “influences” that are outside of man... and remove all mere “influences” within man, that make man a unique individual, then what’s left to explain how he comes to a final decision landed upon? You may suggest that “will” is within man but that just begs-the-question... Doesn’t this “will”, within the system, have the ability to go against all the other parts of man and separate itself and act independently? Then you must explain how this “independent” “will” lands on the final outcome! Mr. Flowers called it “mystery”!

The system is left without a blameworthy cause which is no different than if someone flipped-a-coin to determine the outcome!

Tales = reject

I really want it to land on “heads” but that doesn’t matter because “want” “desire” “preference” are only mere “influences” and in this system and the coin could land “otherwise” against those “influences” that make up man!

Better LUCK next time!

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#### TomFL

##### Guest
“Hard” or “Soft” doesn’t matter! When you remove all “influences” that are outside of man... and remove all mere “influences” within man, that make man a unique individual, then what’s left to explain how he comes to a final decision landed upon? You may suggest that “will” is within man but that just begs-the-question... Doesn’t this “will”, within the system, have the ability to go against all the other parts of man and separate itself and act independently? Then you must explain how this “independent” “will” lands on the final outcome! Mr. Flowers called it “mystery”!

The system is left without a blameworthy cause which is no different than if someone flipped-a-coin to determine the outcome!

Tales = reject

I really want it to land on “heads” but that doesn’t matter because “want” “desire” “preference” are only mere “influences” and in this system and the coin could land “otherwise” against those “influences” that make up man!

Better LUCK next time!

Influences can be both decisive and non decisive.

A man may have a desire for a certain type of activity but he could refrain because he fears God, respects the law, his commitment to his wife and family, afraid of consequences etc

His character, moral disposition set the bounds

That is not random

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism

Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate origin of decisions.

Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.

The principle of alternative possibilities (AP) At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing is genuinely available.

The reality of will-setting moments A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.

The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the freedom of integrity).

Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Influences can be both decisive and non decisive.
And this is supposed to be non-vague?
A man may have a desire for a certain type of activity but he could refrain because he fears God, respects the law, his commitment to his wife and family, afraid of consequences etc
And are you saying that this scenario would cause a definate outcome... or are you still saying the outcome is still a "mystery" and it could go either way?
His character, moral disposition set the bounds
So in other words these influences merely reduce the 20 sided die to maybe a 10 sided die in which case the outcome is still "random"...

... like the fliping-of-a-coin!
That is not random
Except for... it is still random...

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
And this is supposed to be non-vague?

And are you saying that this scenario would cause a definate outcome... or are you still saying the outcome is still a "mystery" and it could go either way?

So in other words these influences merely reduce the 20 sided die to maybe a 10 sided die in which case the outcome is still "random"...

... like the fliping-of-a-coin!

Except for... it is still random...
Sorry I do not think so

Many influences act upon the man so that is not random chance

Man's will makes the choice based upon factors noted previously

But what of God ?

Is he causally determined ?

if not

Do you then believe his actions are random chance ?

Are those the only options relating to the acts of God ?

If not is it impossible God could make a creature with a limited capability

decision making process he himself possesses ?

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Sorry I do not think so
The evidence is clear weather you think so or not!
Many influences act upon the man so that is not random chance
And, again, in your system the option landed on could perhaps land against any, or all, of the external or internal influences acted upon the man... correct?

Your system can not adequately explain how the final option landed on is differentiated from “random chance”!

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
The evidence is clear weather you think so or not!

And, again, in your system the option landed on could perhaps land against any, or all, of the external or internal influences acted upon the man... correct?

Your system can not adequately explain how the final option landed on is differentiated from “random chance”!
Have you addressed any of my concerns

You were asked does God have libertarian free will ?

Or is he causal determined ?

Are his decisions random chance ?

If God has the power of libertarian free are you going to deny his omnipotent ability to create creature with a limited version of what he has

There are but three options here

Atheistic material determination

Divine meticulous causal determination

Libertarian free will

We are not Athiests so I will assume the first option is rejected

Well the bible testified against the second option

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God is not the the determinative cause of man's evil

So guess what option that leaves

Libertarian Free Will

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Have you addressed any of my concerns

It’s impossible to do so when your system can not adequately explain how the final option landed on is differentiated from “random chance”!

You were asked does God have libertarian free will ?
No! God does not flip-a-coin when making decisions!

Your system claims that the will is “free” but it can not account for the final presses that narrows down the options to the one finally landed upon! Because of this gap you can not prove that “freedom” resulted in the final choice!

If it remains a mystery then anything can be a cause that removes “freedom” from the equation!

Options X and Y are available options... both go into the “mystery machine” and Y comes out as the final choice landed upon... why?

If you can’t answer this pivotal question then you can not claim that what goes on within the “mystery machine” is free!

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
It’s impossible to do so when your system can not adequately explain how the final option landed on is differentiated from “random chance”!

No! God does not flip-a-coin when making decisions!

Your system claims that the will is “free” but it can not account for the final presses that narrows down the options to the one finally landed upon! Because of this gap you can not prove that “freedom” resulted in the final choice!

If it remains a mystery then anything can be a cause that removes “freedom” from the equation!

Options X and Y are available options... both go into the “mystery machine” and Y comes out as the final choice landed upon... why?

If you can’t answer this pivotal question then you can not claim that what goes on within the “mystery machine” is free!
Why can you not apply your reasonings to God's decisions

Is God determined ?

Are his decisions random ?

You allow but two options

Which do you apply to God ?

Is God free ?

The bible indicates he is

Psa. 115:3 —ESV
“Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

Do you not accept the word of god

Why then will you not accept the fact the bible clearly shows God is not the cause of man's sin

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 34:10 ¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.

If God is not determining man's sin

Who or what is

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
Why then will you not accept the fact the bible clearly shows God is not the cause of man's sin
Did God immutably know that Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and all of us would sin before the foundations of the world and determined, at that time, to continue with the creation of any and all of it? God before the foundation of the world was planning creation with sin in mind!

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:8

God is the first cause of mans sin simply by creation and your model can not explain this away!

By definition it contradicts its very own title!

Your model, by title, claims that the will is “free” but it can not account for the final process that narrows down the options to the one finally landed upon!
Because of this gap you have not proven that the one final option landed on is a result of freedom!

If it remains a mystery then anything can be a cause that removes “freedom” from the equation!

Example...
Options X and Y are available options... both go into the “mystery machine” and Y comes out as the final choice landed upon... why?

If you can’t answer this pivotal question then you can not claim that what goes on within the “mystery machine” is free!

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
Did God immutably know that Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and all of us would sin before the foundations of the world and determined, at that time, to continue with the creation of any and all of it? God before the foundation of the world was planning creation with sin in mind!

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:8

God is the first cause of mans sin simply by creation and your model can not explain this away!
To Foreknow is not to determine

That is a category error

The bible rejects the idea that God is the cause of man's sin

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 34:10 ¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.

And clearly lays sin at man's feet

Why are you unwilling to heed it

Was God's act of creation determined

or was it random chance ?

How does your either determined or random concept account for creation ?

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
To Foreknow is not to determine
You left out the factor of “creation”...

If God only foreknew, and something other than God created, you would have a point... but...

God, not only, foreknew the immutable outcome of his “choice”, but continued with the action that would inevitably bring about the immutable ends!

The bible rejects the idea that God is the cause of man's sin
Your “system” rejects the idea that God is the cause of man’s sin!

Would you deny that God is the designer of the consequences of Adams fall from the beginning?

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

This consequence is by Gods design... BUT... it goes even further than that!

It may be hard for some to believe but when God created Adam, You, or I he did not creat God...

This means that every one of us are NOT self sufficient... we are dependent on God in a way that God is not dependent on anything!

This means that apart from God we can not function properly!

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

This is what we are designed to be like apart from the sustaining Grace of the creator... God!

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

This is man “by nature” apart from God!
God does not have to “directly” cause us to be “tempted” we are lured and enticed by our “natural” desires!

And clearly lays sin at man's feet
We both agree here! Man, when given freedom from God is, “by nature”, a sinner! By nature children of wrath! (Gods design of man)

Why are you unwilling to heed it
Because I affirm the parts of scripture you deny!

Was God's act of creation determined
No. Like I said above, God is not a created creature dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly!

Man is designed to be a dependent creature! Man is not God!
or was it random chance ?
No for God does not have a flip-a-coin will! Neither does man!
How does your either determined or random concept account for creation ?
False Dichotomy error...

By definition it contradicts its very own title!

Your model, by title, claims that the will is “free” but it can not account for the final process that narrows down the options to the one finally landed upon!
Because of this gap you have not proven that the one final option landed on is a result of freedom!

If it remains a mystery then anything can be a cause that removes “freedom” from the equation!

Example...
Options X and Y are available options... both go into the “mystery machine” and Y comes out as the final choice landed upon... why?

If you can’t answer this pivotal question then you can not claim that what goes on within the “mystery machine” is free!

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
You left out the factor of “creation”...

If God only foreknew, and something other than God created, you would have a point... but...

God, not only, foreknew the immutable outcome of his “choice”, but continued with the action that would inevitably bring about the immutable ends!

Foreknowledge is still not determination

Knowing a free act does not make it determined

You still have a category error

Your “system” rejects the idea that God is the cause of man’s sin!

Just like the bible does

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Will you deal with it ?

Would you deny that God is the designer of the consequences of Adams fall from the beginning?

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

This consequence is by Gods design... BUT... it goes even further than that!

It may be hard for some to believe but when God created Adam, You, or I he did not creat God...

This means that every one of us are NOT self sufficient... we are dependent on God in a way that God is not dependent on anything!

This means that apart from God we can not function properly!

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

This is what we are designed to be like apart from the sustaining Grace of the creator... God!

Are you claiming God determined Adam's fall ?

This is man “by nature” apart from God!
God does not have to “directly” cause us to be “tempted” we are lured and enticed by our “natural” desires!
Our desires not the desires God determined for us

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

In any case as previously noted

Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

so a biased nature is not contrary to a soft libertarian free will

We both agree here! Man, when given freedom from God is, “by nature”, a sinner! By nature children of wrath! (Gods design of man)
Freedom ?

Are you admitting man has some freedom from God determination

Because I affirm the parts of scripture you deny!

....................................................

To Foreknow is not to determine

That is a category error

The bible rejects the idea that God is the cause of man's sin

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 34:10 ¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.

And clearly lays sin at man's feet

Why are you unwilling to heed it

Was God's act of creation determined

or was it random chance ?

How does your either determined or random concept account for creation ?

.......................................

So you are unwilling to heed scripture because you believe some part of scripture you think I don't ?

and what is your response to

Was God's act of creation determined

or was it random chance ?

How does your either determined or random concept account for creation ?

No. Like I said above, God is not a created creature dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly!

Man is designed to be a dependent creature! Man is not God!

No for God does not have a flip-a-coin will! Neither does man!

False Dichotomy error...

By definition it contradicts its very own title!
So you are saying God is not determined

and his acts are not random chance

Those seemed to be the only two options you had allow for man

determined or random

So are you admitting there is a third or fourth option for God

You denied God had libertarian free will

So what is this other option

Not determined, not random , not free

What ?

Your model, by title, claims that the will is “free” but it can not account for the final process that narrows down the options to the one finally landed upon!
Because of this gap you have not proven that the one final option landed on is a result of freedom!

If it remains a mystery then anything can be a cause that removes “freedom” from the equation!

Example...
Options X and Y are available options... both go into the “mystery machine” and Y comes out as the final choice landed upon... why?

If you can’t answer this pivotal question then you can not claim that what goes on within the “mystery machine” is free!

Agent A decided on action Y

according to his nature ,character, desires, mood etc at the time of decision

God decided to create

that brings up back to

Creation act determined ?

Creation act random ?

both apparently denied by you

your other possibility which was not free as you denied God had libertarian free will (or have you understood that one nature does not deny libertarian free will)

Could God have not created ?

#### SovereignGrace

##### Well-known member
Mr. Flowers describes Libertarian Freewillism like this...

“Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice of x or y is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or against any or all influences such that there is no determining factor for his particular choice outside the own function of his will, which is mysterious and beyond full comprehension.”

Note “The will is free to choose for or... against... any or all influences” including “the man’s own character, personality, and preferences”!

This means man may “prefer” Christ but “will” could “mysteriously” “choose against” that “preference”!

Libertarian Freewillism is like a random chance dice game!

I like to call it Flip-a-coin-ism because when you exhaust all possibilities that could determine the outcome, in this system, they are reduced to mere “influences” and because of that you are still left with a random chance outcome!

To understand this description consider...

If everything outside of the will is merely an influencer and what goes on within the will is a “mystery” then it could be explained like this...

Imagine you have two options, x and y, and the will create a 2 sided coin! On one side is x and on the other side is y!

X|Y

Then will considers an influence like “desire” and it happens to be for option x. Now the coin turns into a 3 sided die... with 2 sides for x and one side for y. Still random chance with slightly better odds for x.

X|X|Y

Then the “influence” of “personality” is considered and it is for y, so we now have a 4 sided die... with 2 sides x and 2 sides y. Practically back to a coin again with the odds.

X|X|Y|Y

This keeps going until all influences are considered and at the end you may, for example, end up with a 20 sided die with 9 sides for x and 11 sides for y... but still random!

X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|X|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y|

Inside the will is now the creation of this complex die and the die is thrown by the will and whichever of the 20 sides it finally lands on is the option chosen!

Maybe this time it “mysteriously” lands on y, but if you notice above this is not what “desire” had influenced... therefore since desire is a mere influence, and not a cause, this is what you may get according to Libertarian Freewillism!

Sorry “desire”... better LUCK next time!!!

In this system one may desire Christ... but remember “desire” is only an “influence”, and not a cause, therefore “will” may perhaps “randomly” choose against desire and there is nothing God can do about it without violating your so called “libertarian freewillism”!

Man centered system! Flip-a-coin-ism!
If the will is influenced to make a decision, then the will is not free.

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
If the will is influenced to make a decision, then the will is not free.
Influence is not determination

As long as there is not external determination the will may be stated to be free within the confines of a soft libertarian free will

#### Sketo

##### Well-known member
As long as there is not external determination the will may be stated to be free within the confines of a soft libertarian free will
free within the confines

And if someone locks someone in their basement they can tell the Judge they were “free within the confines” of my basement!

And the Judge will say ok then you can be “free within the confines” of my State Prison!

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#### ReverendRV

##### Well-known member
free within the confines

And if someone locks someone in their basement they can tell the judge they were “free within the confines” of my basement!
That's exactly what Calvinists say; we're Free within our Confines. We're closer than people think, and closer than people will allow us to be...

It is hard for them to find the right words to describe what they believe. In the Past, I've used the Soft Determinism of his 'Wife' to try and make our point. His Wife isn't Culpable for her involvement in his Determinations; as a matter of fact, she can't be made to testify against him...

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#### Reformedguy

##### Well-known member
free within the confines

And if someone locks someone in their basement they can tell the Judge they were “free within the confines” of my basement!

And the Judge will say ok then you can be “free within the confines” of my State Prison!
Free within the confines of our fallen human nature? He sounds like a Calvinist

T

#### TomFL

##### Guest
free within the confines

And if someone locks someone in their basement they can tell the Judge they were “free within the confines” of my basement!

And the Judge will say ok then you can be “free within the confines” of my State Prison!
Do you have a point ?

Or do you just want to argue about how a soft libertarian free will is defined