A Practical Understanding Of Libertarian Freewillism!

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That's exactly what Calvinists say; we're Free within our Confines. We're closer than people think, and closer than people will allow us to be...

It is hard for them to find the right words to describe what they believe. In the Past, I've used the Soft Determinism of his 'Wife' to try and make our point. His Wife isn't Culpable for her involvement in his Determinations; as a matter of fact, she can't be made to testify against him...
His child says "I'm hungry". He goes and steals an Apple Pie cooling on his neighbor's window Sill. Is the Child Culpable?

God has Joseph's brothers send Joseph to Egypt. They Sell Joseph to their distant Cousins. Is God Culpable?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
His child says "I'm hungry". He goes and steals an Apple Pie cooling on his neighbor's window Sill. Is the Child Culpable?

God has Joseph's brothers send Joseph to Egypt. They Sell Joseph to their distant Cousins. Is God Culpable?
Exactly. Take Acts 4:27, 28. God planned and determined murder to occur. Is He guilty of accessory to murder? Planning it would be murder 1 I believe.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Exactly. Take Acts 4:27, 28. God planned and determined murder to occur. Is He guilty of accessory to murder? Planning it would be murder 1 I believe.
It needs needs to be ascertained whether God put that desire in their hearts and it needs to be ascertained whether he did so without any involvement of his foreknowledge

Before it can be stated as say the WCF states God determines all thing without a consideration of what might happen in any given circumstance WCF 3;1.2

Those examples do nothing at all to show that God determines all things however
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
His plan included murder by the participants He gathered to carry out His plan. He sacrificed His Son by having Him murdered
As close as God would get to having anything to do with those Murderers is like when God asked for a Volunteer, and a spirit stepped up. I don't Mind God being involved in the Commencement of Sin; it's apparent...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
As close as God would get to having anything to do with those Murderers is like when God asked for a Volunteer, and a spirit stepped up. I don't Mind God being involved in the Commencement of Sin; it's apparent...
Do you have any evidence God put a murderous desire into the heart of anyone ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
His Plan included Murder, but God meant it for Sacrifice, not for Murder. God's Meaning Is for Good not for Evil...
God's Meaning in Sin is often brought up by Atheists on the Secularism Board; IE Why does God condone Slavery in the Bible?

God Meant Slavery for Good?? Well, it says in the Bible that God Condoned Slavery; a Jew could purchase a Gentile. God Meant it for Good, so that Jesus could buy the World. If Jesus the Man couldn't buy people, he couldn't pay the price to have us...


The Golgatha Purchase ~ by ReverendRV

2nd Peter 2:1 KJV; But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I’ve recently been debating with an Atheist who uses Slavery as a reason to not believe in the God of the Bible. I told him about the Voluntary Servitude the Bible endorses, but he insists on debating about God endorsing Involuntary Servitude; citing Leviticus 25. I said, “I see what you are saying; you're drawing a distinction between the acceptable Servitude of a Jew to a Jew, and the unacceptable Slavery of Gentiles to a Jew. May I suggest that these verses are a Type for the New Testament; If Israel were not permitted to buy people, then Peter couldn’t have said Jesus bought the Heretics.” The Lord Jesus Christ couldn’t have Purchased the World if it were not legal for Jews to purchase Gentiles and be their Sovereign…

If it were illegal for Jews to own Slaves, the Jewish Jesus Christ would not have been able to buy the World from Satan, who gained Dominion from Adam through the Fall. It is like the Louisiana Purchase; Dominion over the Land and the People was purchased. ~ But you Object, “What’s all this Slavery guff? I’ve never been a Slave”. When you Sin, you’re a Slave to Sin and Satan; have you ever told a Lie? What do YOU call people who Lie to you? If you’ve ever found yourself compelled to tell a Lie and you couldn’t help yourself, you are a Slave to Sin and Satan; or you were. You’re still a Slave to Sin but now you are Christ’s Slave as he paid for his Kingdom with his Blood. Your Lies used to deliver you out of trouble but now that you have a new Master, they bring you under his Judgment. As God Incarnate, the Son of God owns you; but through the 'Golgatha Purchase', the Man Jesus Christ bought all of Humanity. ~ If the Bible is true, then you are the Slave of Christ; awaiting either swift destruction; or Forgiveness of Sin...

Forgiveness of Sins is found only in one Name under heaven. ~ For God so loved the World he gave us his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not swiftly perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ bore the Sin of the world while dying on a Cross, to pay the Death Penalty God requires for our Trespasses and Sins; but he arose from the Grave to prepare a place for us in Heaven to be with him. We’re Saved by the Gracious Forgiveness of God, through Faith in Jesus Christ and what he’s done for us, instead of anything we could ever do for ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God, and become his Voluntary Servant at a Bible loving Church. ~ Sinners are Involuntary Servants of Jesus Christ, as they choose their Sin over their Righteous Master; remaining Voluntary Slaves of Sin…

1st Corinthians 7:22-23; KJV; For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.


Would you tell an Atheist that God Meant Slavery for Good?
 
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armylngst

Active member
Have you addressed any of my concerns

You were asked does God have libertarian free will ?
So, you're judging God now? You do realize it doesn't matter if God has libertarian free will or not, that does not somehow affect whether we do or not. Technically, if He has libertarian free will, then we cannot. If our will cannot overcome God's, then it cannot truly be libertarian. (If God has a libertarian free will). If not, then, pray tell, who is God's will bound by?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So, you're judging God now? You do realize it doesn't matter if God has libertarian free will or not, that does not somehow affect whether we do or not. Technically, if He has libertarian free will, then we cannot. If our will cannot overcome God's, then it cannot truly be libertarian. (If God has a libertarian free will). If not, then, pray tell, who is God's will bound by?
How in the world do you get an idea God is being judged when it was asked if a poster holds that God has libertarian free will

It is a total, non sequitur

And his possessing it does not negate the possibility man could have it (though to a lesser degree)
 

armylngst

Active member
How in the world do you get an idea God is being judged when it was asked if a poster holds that God has libertarian free will

It is a total, non sequitur

And his possessing it does not negate the possibility man could have it (though to a lesser degree)
Actually, it does totally negate it...
 

armylngst

Active member
Prove your claims. Back up your belief that both God and man have libertarian free will, and that man's libertarian free will wins in the end.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Prove your claims. Back up your belief that both God and man have libertarian free will, and that man's libertarian free will wins in the end.
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.

(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.

(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:

(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

(Moffatt NT) but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness to me might come of your own free will, without any appearance of constraint.

(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.

(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.

(NASB1995) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will

(NASB) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will

(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.

(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

(RV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.

(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.

(HCSB)
14 But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

......................

Daniel 4:35 (NIV84)
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
 

armylngst

Active member
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.

(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.

(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:

(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

(Moffatt NT) but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness to me might come of your own free will, without any appearance of constraint.

(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.

(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.

(NASB1995) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will

(NASB) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will

(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.

(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

(RV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.

(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.

(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.

(HCSB)
14 But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

......................

Daniel 4:35 (NIV84)
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
An actual scriptural passage would be nice, before I believe you made it all up.
 
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