ReverendRV
Well-known member
We're closer than we think. He can be pushed close to our fence, but never crosses it...Free within the confines of our fallen human nature? He sounds like a Calvinist
We're closer than we think. He can be pushed close to our fence, but never crosses it...Free within the confines of our fallen human nature? He sounds like a Calvinist
His child says "I'm hungry". He goes and steals an Apple Pie cooling on his neighbor's window Sill. Is the Child Culpable?That's exactly what Calvinists say; we're Free within our Confines. We're closer than people think, and closer than people will allow us to be...
It is hard for them to find the right words to describe what they believe. In the Past, I've used the Soft Determinism of his 'Wife' to try and make our point. His Wife isn't Culpable for her involvement in his Determinations; as a matter of fact, she can't be made to testify against him...
Exactly. Take Acts 4:27, 28. God planned and determined murder to occur. Is He guilty of accessory to murder? Planning it would be murder 1 I believe.His child says "I'm hungry". He goes and steals an Apple Pie cooling on his neighbor's window Sill. Is the Child Culpable?
God has Joseph's brothers send Joseph to Egypt. They Sell Joseph to their distant Cousins. Is God Culpable?
God didn't plan Murder but planned a Sacrifice; they planned a Murder...Exactly. Take Acts 4:27, 28. God planned and determined murder to occur. Is He guilty of accessory to murder? Planning it would be murder 1 I believe.
His plan included murder by the participants He gathered to carry out His plan. He sacrificed His Son by having Him murderedGod didn't plan Murder but planned a Sacrifice; they planned a Murder...
It needs needs to be ascertained whether God put that desire in their hearts and it needs to be ascertained whether he did so without any involvement of his foreknowledgeExactly. Take Acts 4:27, 28. God planned and determined murder to occur. Is He guilty of accessory to murder? Planning it would be murder 1 I believe.
As close as God would get to having anything to do with those Murderers is like when God asked for a Volunteer, and a spirit stepped up. I don't Mind God being involved in the Commencement of Sin; it's apparent...His plan included murder by the participants He gathered to carry out His plan. He sacrificed His Son by having Him murdered
Do you have any evidence God put a murderous desire into the heart of anyone ?As close as God would get to having anything to do with those Murderers is like when God asked for a Volunteer, and a spirit stepped up. I don't Mind God being involved in the Commencement of Sin; it's apparent...
Nope, because that's never happened...Do you have any evidence God put a murderous desire into the heart of anyone ?
His Plan included Murder, but God meant it for Sacrifice, not for Murder. God's Meaning Is for Good not for Evil...His plan included murder by the participants He gathered to carry out His plan. He sacrificed His Son by having Him murdered
God's Meaning in Sin is often brought up by Atheists on the Secularism Board; IE Why does God condone Slavery in the Bible?His Plan included Murder, but God meant it for Sacrifice, not for Murder. God's Meaning Is for Good not for Evil...
So, you're judging God now? You do realize it doesn't matter if God has libertarian free will or not, that does not somehow affect whether we do or not. Technically, if He has libertarian free will, then we cannot. If our will cannot overcome God's, then it cannot truly be libertarian. (If God has a libertarian free will). If not, then, pray tell, who is God's will bound by?Have you addressed any of my concerns
You were asked does God have libertarian free will ?
How in the world do you get an idea God is being judged when it was asked if a poster holds that God has libertarian free willSo, you're judging God now? You do realize it doesn't matter if God has libertarian free will or not, that does not somehow affect whether we do or not. Technically, if He has libertarian free will, then we cannot. If our will cannot overcome God's, then it cannot truly be libertarian. (If God has a libertarian free will). If not, then, pray tell, who is God's will bound by?
Actually, it does totally negate it...How in the world do you get an idea God is being judged when it was asked if a poster holds that God has libertarian free will
It is a total, non sequitur
And his possessing it does not negate the possibility man could have it (though to a lesser degree)
Sorry you provide no proof of that and the Calvinist creeds such as WCF and LBC contradict your claimActually, it does totally negate it...
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.Prove your claims. Back up your belief that both God and man have libertarian free will, and that man's libertarian free will wins in the end.
An actual scriptural passage would be nice, before I believe you made it all up.(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(Moffatt NT) but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness to me might come of your own free will, without any appearance of constraint.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(NASB1995) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will
(NASB) but without your consent I did not want to do anything , so that your goodness would not be, in effect by compulsion but of your own free will
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(HCSB)
14 But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
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Daniel 4:35 (NIV84)
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
Seriously ?An actual scriptural passage would be nice, before I believe you made it all up.