A series of videos by Dr. John Lennox, a mathematician

The Pixie

Well-known member
No. The bible is true because it is breathed into the lives of those who wrote it, and that's because they experienced God.
And you know that because... It says it in the Bible.

The bible is true
Therefore the Bible is true

So, instead of trying to win an argument you lost before you came here, come follow Jesus and learn for yourself the integrity and veracity of the bible.
You mean I should just assume the Bible is true, and see where that takes me? I would probably conclude the Bible is true, like you do Steve.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
And you know that because... It says it in the Bible.

The bible is true
Therefore the Bible is true
It's true in the same way that physics, mathematics, computer programming books are true.
We happen to gain knowledge of their truthfulness, because we do what they describe is necessary to know their truthfulness.

You mean I should just assume the Bible is true, and see where that takes me? I would probably conclude the Bible is true, like you do Steve.
No.
Even Jesus, and his brother James said to know it's true, you have to do what is stated....
Matthew 7

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.​
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”​

James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.​
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.​

The same thing that we can learn by doing what we're taught in college textbooks.
I never would've known how to program, unless I'd actually followed the instructions in the coding texts.
Same with Physics, same with Mathematics.

I know its true, because I've done what is stated.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.​
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
It's true in the same way that physics, mathematics, computer programming books are true.
We happen to gain knowledge of their truthfulness, because we do what they describe is necessary to know their truthfulness.

The same thing that we can learn by doing what we're taught in college textbooks.
I never would've known how to program, unless I'd actually followed the instructions in the coding texts.
Same with Physics, same with Mathematics.

I know its true, because I've done what is stated.
Except that this analogy doesn't hold up under any kind of critical scrutiny. Following textbook instructions in physics or maths produces intersubjectively verifiable results and knowledge best explained by the truth of the instructions, while following scriptural instructions in religion produces only subjective results and faith best explained by gullibility and a lack of critical thinking.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
It's true in the same way that physics, mathematics, computer programming books are true.
We happen to gain knowledge of their truthfulness, because we do what they describe is necessary to know their truthfulness.
We know physics, mathematics, computer programming are true because we can do experiments or study proofs to confirm it.

Please tell me how you established that the disciples saw Jesus in Jerusalem after he was crucified. What experiment did you do? What proof did you work though?

No.
Even Jesus, and his brother James said to know it's true, you have to do what is stated....
Matthew 7

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.​
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”​
So if I do the sayings, then I will see it is true?

Exactly what saying do I have to do?

Earlier in that chapter we find this:

7 “[g]Ask, and it will be given to you; [h]seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what person is there among you [j]who, when his son asks for a loaf of bread, [k]will give him a stone? 10 Or [l]if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 So if you, despite being [m]evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Are you saying that I should ask for something, and if it is given to me, that is the proof?

Do Christians ever pray that the sick are healed? Does it always come true? No, it does not. People have done studies that show that whether a person recovers from illness has no correlation with prayer. Therefore, it is not true that if you ask it will be given to you, even for those who consider themselves Christians.

This leads me to believe that if I were to ask for something, then whether I receive will not be determined by my asking God for it. But I will have a go.

God, please can you bring peace on Earth? Thanks in advance.

So there is our test. If you are right, 2021 will be characterised by no wars and no fighting. We both know that that will not happen, and indeed we are so sure it will not happen that you will be quick to say I should not test God or whatever lame excuse you can come up with as to why this will not happen, well before 2021 even starts.

James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.​
Do you do that? Do you have the meekness to admit you were wrong about positrons? No, Steve, you patently do not.

Why on earth do you think I will believe you when you exhibit such hypocrisy?

I know its true, because I've done what is stated.
And yet you lack the meekness to admit you were wrong. Clearly you have NOT done what is stated.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Except that this analogy doesn't hold up under any kind of critical scrutiny. Following textbook instructions in physics or maths produces intersubjectively verifiable results and knowledge best explained by the truth of the instructions, while following scriptural instructions in religion produces only subjective results and faith best explained by gullibility and a lack of critical thinking.
And you know this..... how?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
And you know this..... how?
By investigating the comparison in more detail than you ever go into. What results do you get from religion or scripture that are intersubjectively and verifiably true, like results in science, and are not either subjective or equally well explained without needing to posit the existence of any supernatural entities? I'll wait... (just like I'm still waiting for your apology...)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I've never seen Steve admit to a mistake. Ever.
And yet you lack the meekness to admit you were wrong. Clearly you have NOT done what is stated.

Actually, I've admitted to numerous mistakes,
I think the first mistake I admitted to on this forum was that I was mistaken that atheists actually wanted to know God is real, and knowable.
The next mistake I admitted to was that I was wrong about God, so I took the time to learn how to be right with God, and have been learning to be right with him ever since.

So, once I pursued this course, I've since learned that atheists don't want to actually know God is real and knowable. The only want to rail on every, and any idea that does not fit their biases regarding God, so they never have to be wrong about him.

So, it strikes me that it's the atheists who are not admitting to their mistakes.
What I find sad is that for those who, by the time they die, refuse to follow JEsus, they'll awaken in hell, and find they now lack the power to admit to the worst possible mistake ever, and will forever be stuck with their "unbelief" and suffer great shame, and everlasting contempt.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
By investigating the comparison in more detail than you ever go into. What results do you get from religion or scripture that are intersubjectively and verifiably true, like results in science, and are not either subjective or equally well explained without needing to posit the existence of any supernatural entities? I'll wait... (just like I'm still waiting for your apology...)
Yet you've provided nothing by which your claims can be verified.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
And yet you lack the meekness to admit you were wrong. Clearly you have NOT done what is stated.

Actually, I've admitted to numerous mistakes,
I think the first mistake I admitted to on this forum was that I was mistaken that atheists actually wanted to know God is real, and knowable.
The next mistake I admitted to was that I was wrong about God, so I took the time to learn how to be right with God, and have been learning to be right with him ever since.

So, once I pursued this course, I've since learned that atheists don't want to actually know God is real and knowable. The only want to rail on every, and any idea that does not fit their biases regarding God, so they never have to be wrong about him.

So, it strikes me that it's the atheists who are not admitting to their mistakes.
What I find sad is that for those who, by the time they die, refuse to follow JEsus, they'll awaken in hell, and find they now lack the power to admit to the worst possible mistake ever, and will forever be stuck with their "unbelief" and suffer great shame, and everlasting contempt.
What was I supposedly wrong about? What have I not done? Be specific!

You never admit your mistakes, even when they are blatantly obvious (e.g. Big Bang caused by two colliding atoms exploding!)

You were wrong to claim I never answered your fence question, yet you still haven't admitted the error or apologized.

You've again just tried to twist an admission of fallibility into an opportunity to insult and attack atheists.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
We know physics, mathematics, computer programming are true because we can do experiments or study proofs to confirm it.
Everyone who comes to Jesus, and does what he said will confirm what he taught.
It's been this way for 1987 years.
Please tell me how you established that the disciples saw Jesus in Jerusalem after he was crucified. What experiment did you do? What proof did you work though?
Eyewitness testimony.

So if I do the sayings, then I will see it is true?
This is what Jesus said.
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.​
John 7
6 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​




Exactly what saying do I have to do?
They're all contained in the new testament.
Read and you can learn for yourself.


Earlier in that chapter we find this:

7 “[g]Ask, and it will be given to you; [h]seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what person is there among you [j]who, when his son asks for a loaf of bread, [k]will give him a stone? 10 Or [l]if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 So if you, despite being [m]evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Are you saying that I should ask for something, and if it is given to me, that is the proof?
What does Jesus say there?
Ask and it will be give.
Seek and you will find.
Knock, and the door will be opened to you.

I'm going to say--- instead of asking for stuff, or magic tricks, ask God to show himself to you through Jesus Christ.
We read in John 6
All who come to me, I will not turn away for any reason.
In Hebrews 7:25 it states
God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

In Romans 10, we read----
Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus said in Matthew 6
Seek first the Kingdom of God, and His Righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

So..... make your focus to know God.
He tells us in Jeremiah 24:7--- I will give them a heart to know me.

So...... deal with those in your interactions with God.

Do Christians ever pray that the sick are healed? Does it always come true? No, it does not. People have done studies that show that whether a person recovers from illness has no correlation with prayer. Therefore, it is not true that if you ask it will be given to you, even for those who consider themselves Christians.
Sure we do.
ALWAYS?
Not according to your standards, no.
Thankfully, we don't use your standards to judge what God does or does not do.
So...... the question here becomes----
Whose standard are you going to use?



This leads me to believe that if I were to ask for something, then whether I receive will not be determined by my asking God for it. But I will have a go.

God, please can you bring peace on Earth? Thanks in advance.
He is, and will.
the problem becomes---- how fast do you want to end up in hell?
Once Jesus returns, all evil will be put down.

Here's what you don't understand about peace.

According to Isaiah 32:17, Peace is the fruit of righteousness. So, if there's no righteousness, there can be no peace.



16 Then justice will dwell in the wilderness, And righteousness remain in the fruitful field.​
17 The work of righteousness will be peace, And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever.​
18 My people will dwell in a peaceful habitation, In secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places,​


Thus, when Jesus returns, all evildoers will be sent to hell to await for the final day of judgment, and righteousness will reign on the earth.

How soon do you want to be in hell?
God doesn't want anyone to perish, and instead for everyone to come to repentance. I.e., turn to him, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.
So, if you refuse to repent, and trust in Jesus--- you will go to hell, and then following the day of judgment, spend your eternity in the lake of fire.
We come here to give you the means of being made right with God.
It's not an argument.... you can either believe God or not. Telling us that


So there is our test. If you are right, 2021 will be characterised by no wars and no fighting. We both know that that will not happen, and indeed we are so sure it will not happen that you will be quick to say I should not test God or whatever lame excuse you can come up with as to why this will not happen, well before 2021 even starts.
No. It just means there will be no righteousness, and because of the lack of righteousness, there will be no peace.
So.... repent and believe the gospel of Jesus.
You will find peace with God, and then you too can learn to follow Jesus, and become a messenger of peace.

20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

So..... do you want to know the truth, or do you want to win an argument?


Do you do that? Do you have the meekness to admit you were wrong about positrons? No, Steve, you patently do not.
Well, this shows you did not read my post on this.
Which is ironic, because you actually responded to it.
Seems to me that you need to pay more attention to what you read, and are posting to.


Meekness is not sitting there letting you, or others berate me.
I'm going to tell you about Jesus.
If you want to win an argument, then it seems to me you just have to ignore what the bible says.
You'll be self-justified, and miss the gospel.


Why on earth do you think I will believe you when you exhibit such hypocrisy?
I'm not the one who needs to be right here.
Perhaps you should go back and re-read what I posted.

And yet you lack the meekness to admit you were wrong. Clearly you have NOT done what is stated.
You yet you're so interested in winning, you never bothered reading what I stated, in spite of the fact you responded to it.


Talk to me about meekness after you actually read my post.

 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Everyone who comes to Jesus, and does what he said will confirm what he taught.
It's been this way for 1987 years.
Everyone who drinks the cool-aid will see the truth of the cult's doctrine.
It's been this way for even longer.

You're taking your time composing that apology you owe me.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Everyone who drinks the cool-aid will see the truth of the cult's doctrine.
It's been this way for even longer.

You're taking your time composing that apology you owe me.
Well, I just went through all 13 pages of the build a fence thread.
You never once answered the question about whether you built a fence or not.
I think you're the one whose been drinking koolaid. Apparently for a very, very, very long time.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Well, I just went through all 13 pages of the build a fence thread.
You never once answered the question about whether you built a fence or not.
I think you're the one whose been drinking koolaid. Apparently for a very, very, very long time.
That's a lie, as I've already directly linked you to the answer multiple times.

I can bump the thread for you right now.

I expect an apology to be forthcoming.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Everyone who comes to Jesus, and does what he said will confirm what he taught.
It's been this way for 1987 years.
So talk me through it Steve, as you have presumably done this. Exactly how was it confirmed for you?

Eyewitness testimony.
What eye witnesses? Not Mark, the end of chapter 16 is a later addition. Not Matthew, he did not write the gospel that bears his name. Not Luke, he was not around. And not John, he also did not write the gospel that bears his name.

Furthermore, as far as I know, we do not have any document or fragment of a document that includes the Jerusalem appearances that dates to before AD 300, so what we have is accounts recorded by people who were not there, and then copied and copied again.

Again, it comes down to:

  • The bible is true
  • Therefore the bible is true

They're all contained in the new testament.
Read and you can learn for yourself.
Heaven forbid you should just say. Better to be vague, that way you can weasel out of it later.

So much for the having the courage of your conviction.

What does Jesus say there?
Ask and it will be give.
Seek and you will find.
Knock, and the door will be opened to you.

I'm going to say--- instead of asking for stuff, or magic tricks, ask God to show himself to you through Jesus Christ.
Right, because if anyone asks for something tangible, God will fail to give.

Does it not strike you as odd that your God cannot be distinguished from an imaginary god? I can ask an imaginary god for stuff or magic tricks, and the result is exactly the same!

Sure we do.
ALWAYS?
Not according to your standards, no.
Thankfully, we don't use your standards to judge what God does or does not do.
So...... the question here becomes----
Whose standard are you going to use?
I am going to compare your God to an imaginary god. If I pray to an imaginary god will I recover? Sure, sometimes. Just like if you pray to your God. Turns out a person's chances of recovery will be the same either way.


He is, and will.
Jam tomorrow.

My imaginary god can do just as well. He can promise to do anything you like at some vague time in the future.

the problem becomes---- how fast do you want to end up in hell?
Ah the threat of being tortured by God forever. How loving and merciful is your God.

According to Isaiah 32:17, Peace is the fruit of righteousness. So, if there's no righteousness, there can be no peace.
I can rationalise my imaginary doing diddly-squat just as easily.


Thus, when Jesus returns, all evildoers will be sent to hell to await for the final day of judgment, and righteousness will reign on the earth.
My imaginary god can promise jam tomorrow too.

Me previously said:
Do you do that? Do you have the meekness to admit you were wrong about positrons? No, Steve, you patently do not.
Well, this shows you did not read my post on this.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/qun...per-division-university-course.688/post-55434
Which is ironic, because you actually responded to it.
Seems to me that you need to pay more attention to what you read, and are posting to.
From the post you linked to:

The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted.

That is utter nonsense!

Where is the admission you were wrong Steve? Are you saying it was in the same post you said it?

Meekness is not sitting there letting you, or others berate me.
Meekness is, in part, having the humility to admit you were wrong. Something you clearly do not have.

I'm not the one who needs to be right here.
Perhaps you should go back and re-read what I posted.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/qun...per-division-university-course.688/post-55434


You yet you're so interested in winning, you never bothered reading what I stated, in spite of the fact you responded to it.

https://forums.carm.org/threads/qun...per-division-university-course.688/post-55434

Talk to me about meekness after you actually read my post.

https://forums.carm.org/threads/qun...per-division-university-course.688/post-55434
Again, from the post you have linked to four times:

The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted.

That is still utter nonsense, no matter how many times you link to it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So talk me through it Steve, as you have presumably done this. Exactly how was it confirmed for you?
It's something that needs to be experienced to be more fully understood.

It's like sex, eating vanilla, or enjoying a sunrise and seeing the sunset, a baby's laughter.

It's a sublime thing that occurs when the people who engage in and experience the activities.

Let's see what I can do here...

By choosing to say yes to God, we're agreeing with him and his Word.
When this takes place, the change in our hearts occurs, because God does what he said he would.
He removes the old stony heart of flesh and he puts in us a new heart of flesh and a new spirit, and then he places his own Spirit in us.
It's something of a simultaneous change.

We then start reading the bible, which is the collection of words from God. And they begin the mind renewal process.
As we read the parts that instruct us what we need to do, and we do them, we are beginning to understand, and demonstrate that good, perfect and acceptable will of God.
This further increases as we continue to do so, and as such we grow up into adulthood as men and women who believe God and continue to learn to know God and Jesus.

This is pretty much like a child being born, and growing up. But the application is spiritual, emotional, mental, psychological.


What eye witnesses? Not Mark, the end of chapter 16 is a later addition. Not Matthew, he did not write the gospel that bears his name. Not Luke, he was not around. And not John, he also did not write the gospel that bears his name.
then you have nothing to worry about.
When you die, that really hot, uncomfortable, and miserable position you find yourself in will just be the reality which you chose, because you believed that your ignorance was more truthful than the truth.

Furthermore, as far as I know, we do not have any document or fragment of a document that includes the Jerusalem appearances that dates to before AD 300, so what we have is accounts recorded by people who were not there, and then copied and copied again.
And here's the key problem.... as far as you know.
God's Word is beyond your knowledge, and he's giving you the opportunity to learn the truth, through Jesus Christ.


Again, it comes down to:

  • The bible is true
  • Therefore the bible is true
Isn't it nice to know that Truth is beyond your knowledge, and doesn't depend on your biases, and preconceptions?
Let us know when you're ready to stop wandering around in circles.


Heaven forbid you should just say. Better to be vague, that way you can weasel out of it later.
I have said. It's not dependent on what you know, think you know, and want to know.
It's dependent entirely on the truth.
Perhaps you should consider losing the chip on your shoulder, and turning to God, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.

So much for the having the courage of your conviction.
Seems the problem here is that I don't have your ignorance. So, how can I have the courage of your ignorance?


Right, because if anyone asks for something tangible, God will fail to give.
Oh, I don't know. Your ignorance is your ignorance.
Why is your ignorance my fault? Or God's for that matter?
God's been giving his people tangible evidence for millennia.

Does it not strike you as odd that your God cannot be distinguished from an imaginary god? I can ask an imaginary god for stuff or magic tricks, and the result is exactly the same!
Well, considering that God has made himself quite real, and knowable to us, who follow Jesus, it seems to me that you believe in a false god, who is in fact imaginary, which would then make perfect sense that you have never received anything tangible.
Stop believing in imaginary gods, and believe the Real, True, and Living God, YHVH.


I am going to compare your God to an imaginary god. If I pray to an imaginary god will I recover? Sure, sometimes. Just like if you pray to your God. Turns out a person's chances of recovery will be the same either way.



Jam tomorrow.

My imaginary god can do just as well. He can promise to do anything you like at some vague time in the future.
Well, if you're satisfied with imaginary gods, then you'll have exactly what you want..... a really twisted imagination.
Paul actually talks about this in Romans 1.
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man

Your imaginary ideas make you out to be a fool. You'd do well to lose your imaginary ideas, and start learning the truth.

This here is a primary component of the Truth.

Psa 100:3 NKJV - Know that the LORD, He [is] God; [It is] He [who] has made us, and not we ourselves; [We are] His people and the sheep of His pasture.​

We are our own. We belong to YHVH. He made us.



Ah the threat of being tortured by God forever. How loving and merciful is your God.
He's loving enough to let you live with the consequences of your choices, and not force you to obey him.
He's merciful enough that he didn't destroy you when you sinned against him, and then gave his only begotten son to die in your place, so you could choose to live if you so desired.
I'd say those are two seriously humongous displays of love and mercy.

I can rationalise my imaginary doing diddly-squat just as easily.
Let's see how that works when you die.
I hope you never be that foolish.

My imaginary god can promise jam tomorrow too.
It's not about a promise.
It's about the delivery on the promise.
YHVH has been delivering on his for millennia.
From the post you linked to:

The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted.

That is utter nonsense!

Where is the admission you were wrong Steve? Are you saying it was in the same post you said it?


Meekness is, in part, having the humility to admit you were wrong. Something you clearly do not have.


Again, from the post you have linked to four times:

The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted.

That is still utter nonsense, no matter how many times you link to it.
I'd say your imagination is stronger than your knowledge of the truth.
It's a pity you are so bound by your biases, and imagination, you've repeatedly ignored the truth of what I subsequently stated.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
It's something that needs to be experienced to be more fully understood.

It's like sex, eating vanilla, or enjoying a sunrise and seeing the sunset, a baby's laughter.

It's a sublime thing that occurs when the people who engage in and experience the activities.
Right. So the only way to confirm God exists is to start by believing God exists. If you believe God exists, then, by golly, you will just believe that God exists.

The problem is that first step. I just cannot do that.

Let's see what I can do here...

By choosing to say yes to God, we're agreeing with him and his Word.
When this takes place, the change in our hearts occurs, because God does what he said he would.
He removes the old stony heart of flesh and he puts in us a new heart of flesh and a new spirit, and then he places his own Spirit in us.
It's something of a simultaneous change.
How do I say "yes" to a god I do not think exists?

We then start reading the bible, which is the collection of words from God. And they begin the mind renewal process.
As we read the parts that instruct us what we need to do, and we do them, we are beginning to understand, and demonstrate that good, perfect and acceptable will of God.
I have read a lot of the Bible, and the more I read the less likely I think it comes from God.

For one thing, as we are discussing elsewhere, the Bible says chattel slavery is acceptable. I find it unbelievable that a moral god would say such a thing (among others), and so conclude the Bible comes from man, and not from God.

And here's the key problem.... as far as you know.
Right, I may be wrong. And I have the humility to admit that.

You might be wrong too, Steve. Do you have the humility to admit that?

Why on earth would I believe a supposed Christian who lacks the humility to admit he might be wrong, despite Jesus telling his followers to act with humility?

Isn't it nice to know that Truth is beyond your knowledge, and doesn't depend on your biases, and preconceptions?
Let us know when you're ready to stop wandering around in circles.
What are you talking about Steve?

The truth is what it is. I might be right, you might be right, we might both be wrong. And perhaps the full truth is beyond our knowledge. I can only go on what I see in the world. And what I see tells me that Christianity is not true.

I have said. It's not dependent on what you know, think you know, and want to know.
It's dependent entirely on the truth.
But that is also true of you, Steve. You just lack the ability to see it.

Perhaps you should consider losing the chip on your shoulder, and turning to God, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.
Why would I do that if I think it is wrong?

And I humbly suggest the chip is on your shoulder Steve. I can admit I might be wrong. Can you?

Seems the problem here is that I don't have your ignorance. So, how can I have the courage of your ignorance?
What you lack is humility, Steve. You have ignorance in spades; you are the guy who thinks positrons bounce off electrons, after all.

He's loving enough to let you live with the consequences of your choices, and not force you to obey him.
He's merciful enough that he didn't destroy you when you sinned against him, and then gave his only begotten son to die in your place, so you could choose to live if you so desired.
I'd say those are two seriously humongous displays of love and mercy.
I disagree. I think torturing people for eternity is the very opposite of love and mercy.

See, Steve, here is another great reason to think Christianity is nonsense; you say God is all-loving and all-merciful out of one side of your mouth and that he will torture me for eternity if I do not worship him out the other side. How do you reconcile the two?

It's a pity you are so bound by your biases, and imagination, you've repeatedly ignored the truth of what I subsequently stated.
For thing thing, all you offer as evidence is your opinion. You started your post saying how your faith has been confirmed, and all you could say was it is "like sex, eating vanilla, or enjoying a sunrise and seeing the sunset, a baby's laughter". Why should I believe you when that is all you have to confirm Christianity is true?

Set that against (1) the Bible that says slavery is moral when it patently is not; (2) Christians cannot swallow your pride to admit you are wrong to an atheist, despite Jesus telling them to be meek and humble; and (3) a supposedly all-loving all-merciful God who torture for eternity those who fail to worship him. To me, it all adds up to a bunch of nonsense.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Right. So the only way to confirm God exists is to start by believing God exists. If you believe God exists, then, by golly, you will just believe that God exists.
Jesus said that if you keep his teachings, you will be loved by God, and both God and JEsus will come and make their home with you. John 14:23


The problem is that first step. I just cannot do that.
Well then. I'd say you've excluded yourself from knowing the truth, and you'll spend your eternity in the lake of fire living with the consequences of believing you were a prisoner of yourself.
 
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