A series of videos by Dr. John Lennox, a mathematician

Nouveau

Well-known member
Steve neglects to mention that what he is asking of others is NOT how things worked for him. Steve did not begin by saying Yes to God and his Word, by having his heart replaced, or by keeping God's teachings. Steve just asked God if He was real and God supposedly revealed himself to Steve, thereby making belief and all these other faith-based steps possible for him. But now Steve insists that everyone should be able to come to God through completely different means, usually requiring one to simply start believing in God without any evidence equivalent to that with which he claims to have been provided.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Steve neglects to mention that what he is asking of others is NOT how things worked for him. Steve did not begin by saying Yes to God and his Word, by having his heart replaced, or by keeping God's teachings. Steve just asked God if He was real and God supposedly revealed himself to Steve, thereby making belief and all these other faith-based steps possible for him. But now Steve insists that everyone should be able to come to God through completely different means, usually requiring one to simply start believing in God without any evidence equivalent to that with which he claims to have been provided.
If you don't care, it won't matter until it's too late to do anything about it.
I do however find it curious that it was so important to Jesus that he said---
It's better to cut off your hand, eye, foot, and enter into life maimed, than to enter into hell, whole. And considering there were no prosthetics available back then, that's saying something......
Hell must be pretty bad for him to first make the statement, and then go to the cross, and die a brutal, heinous, and humiliating death. All for the singular reason of saving you from hell, to give you life in exchange for your death.
So..... if you don't care, I suppose you'll be caring one moment after you're dead.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
If you don't care, it won't matter until it's too late to do anything about it.
I do however find it curious that it was so important to Jesus that he said---
It's better to cut off your hand, eye, foot, and enter into life maimed, than to enter into hell, whole. And considering there were no prosthetics available back then, that's saying something......
Hell must be pretty bad for him to first make the statement, and then go to the cross, and die a brutal, heinous, and humiliating death. All for the singular reason of saving you from hell, to give you life in exchange for your death.
So..... if you don't care, I suppose you'll be caring one moment after you're dead.
Readers note how none of this addresses the point to which Steve was responding.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Readers note how none of this addresses the point to which Steve was responding.
readers note that Nouveau thinks so highly of himself, while dismissing his own NPD, he ignores what the important points are, while seeking to appear superior, and intellectually advanced.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
readers note that Nouveau thinks so highly of himself, while dismissing his own NPD, he ignores what the important points are, while seeking to appear superior, and intellectually advanced.
Readers note that after utterly failing to address the point he was responding to, Steve is now engaging in obvious projection and fallacious ad hominem comments. At no point will he address the actual point made, or ever get past his own ego to admit his mistakes.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Readers note that after utterly failing to address the point he was responding to, Steve is now engaging in obvious projection and fallacious ad hominem comments. At no point will he address the actual point made, or ever get past his own ego to admit his mistakes.
Trolling again I see.
Let me guess.... there aren't enough satisfying threads with which to engage?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Trolling again I see.
Let me guess.... there aren't enough satisfying threads with which to engage?
Readers note how Steve resorts to bogus accusations of 'trolling' after evading the point and then attacking the poster.
Again, at no point will he even attempt to address the point made.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Readers note how Steve resorts to bogus accusations of 'trolling' after evading the point and then attacking the poster.
Again, at no point will he even attempt to address the point made.
You're the one who is chasing me around the forum.
So..... we call that trolling.
Or didn't you know the definition?



Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community. Basically, a social media troll is someone who purposely says something controversial in order to get a rise out of other users.


Seems to me that you have no interest in conversation you cannot control, or manipulate to come across as superior.
Your tactics have long been observable as trolling.
So..... why don't you go start your own ops, and stop seeking to hijack other's.
This way, you'll no longer be trolling.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
No-one's trolling you, Steve. Consistently pointing out your errors and evasions is not being inflammatory. Try staying on topic and addressing what is said to you for once.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No-one's trolling you, Steve. Consistently pointing out your errors and evasions is not being inflammatory. Try staying on topic and addressing what is said to you for once.
I notice that you only show up when you have no other conversations to engage in.

This shows me a couple of things.
1- you're desperately lonely.
2- you're desperate to be heard, regardless of how poorly made your rants are.
Both of which confirms that you have NPD, as defined in the medical articles I'd previously posted yesterday.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I notice that you only show up when you have no other conversations to engage in.

This shows me a couple of things.
1- you're desperately lonely.
2- you're desperate to be heard, regardless of how poorly made your rants are.
Both of which confirms that you have NPD, as defined in the medical articles I'd previously posted yesterday.
Readers may note how Steve is again projecting and engaging in off-topic irrelevant ad hominem nonsense instead of addressing the point.
At no point will the narcissist ever even try to be reasonable.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Readers may note how Steve is again projecting and engaging in off-topic irrelevant ad hominem nonsense instead of addressing the point.
At no point will the narcissist ever even try to be reasonable.
You're the one who is going from thread to thread vilifying me to make yourself feel better and the victim.

This is a classic example of NPD.

Post in thread 'Hypothetical Discussion with a Narcissist' https://forums.carm.org/threads/hypothetical-discussion-with-a-narcissist.1336/post-87988
 

Komodo

Well-known member
Steve neglects to mention that what he is asking of others is NOT how things worked for him. Steve did not begin by saying Yes to God and his Word, by having his heart replaced, or by keeping God's teachings. Steve just asked God if He was real and God supposedly revealed himself to Steve, thereby making belief and all these other faith-based steps possible for him. But now Steve insists that everyone should be able to come to God through completely different means, usually requiring one to simply start believing in God without any evidence equivalent to that with which he claims to have been provided.
And not just that we "should be able to come to God through completely different means," but -- he keeps insisting -- that we must come to him through first believing in Jesus, that this is the only way it can be done (despite the fact that he supposedly came by a different path).
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Jesus said that if you keep his teachings, you will be loved by God, and both God and JEsus will come and make their home with you. John 14:23
Just assume the Bible is true, then you can show that the bible is true.

  • The Bible is true
  • Therefore the Bible is true

Well then. I'd say you've excluded yourself from knowing the truth, and you'll spend your eternity in the lake of fire living with the consequences of believing you were a prisoner of yourself.
So really all you have besides the usual circular arguments is the threat of your all-loving, all-merciful God torturing me for ever.

Why would I ever love such a monster? How can you love such a monster, Steve? Do you get off on ythe idea that God tortures billions? Seriously, what is with you and this supposed torturer of billions that you find so appealing?

Steve previously said:
And here's the key problem.... as far as you know.
Me previously said:
Right, I may be wrong. And I have the humility to admit that.

You might be wrong too, Steve. Do you have the humility to admit that?
Steve latest said:
You cannot do it, can you? You just cannot admit to the possibility you might be wrong.

You are happy to berate me for being sure of myself, but it turns out you are the arrogant one here; you are the one so cocksure he is right. You, like so many Christians, lack the basic humility to acknowledge you might be wrong. If you are unable to follow Jesus' teachings, and you think the Bible is true, why on earth would I, when I do not believe it.

Perhaps those who only pay lip service to the Bible will be joining me in the lake of fire..?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Just assume the Bible is true, then you can show that the bible is true.

  • The Bible is true
  • Therefore the Bible is true
Looks like bias to me.
We who follow Jesus do so we can know whether it's true or not, instead of repeating the same old biases over and over.
It is after all written

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

If you were smarter, you'd take the time to follow those instructions, instead of playing the parrot.


So really all you have besides the usual circular arguments is the threat of your all-loving, all-merciful God torturing me for ever.
they're only circular because you are acting like a parrot, instead of a human being.
Stop it!
Start being human.


Why would I ever love such a monster? How can you love such a monster, Steve? Do you get off on ythe idea that God tortures billions? Seriously, what is with you and this supposed torturer of billions that you find so appealing?
He's only a monster to people who refuse to learn to think, and reason.... I.e., those who prefer, and actually believe acting stupid is a better way to live.
So. if you really think stupidity, and playing dumb is a good thing, then you'll get exactly what you want. An eternity in the lake of fire.



You cannot do it, can you? You just cannot admit to the possibility you might be wrong.
You really are dumb, aren't you? This isn't a game you play, is it!
I've admitted to being wrong so many times, and stated this is exactly why I don't trust myself when it comes to knowing God.
He has after all stated----
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.​
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your flesh, And strength to your bones.​

Seems to me that you can either act like a parrot, dumbly reciting what you think you know, or you can become an actual human being, and start learning why we who follow Jesus live as we do, and then start learning to follow Jesus.

The first thing to do is to stop leaning on your own understanding. It's embarrassing you.

You are happy to berate me for being sure of myself, but it turns out you are the arrogant one here; you are the one so cocksure he is right. You, like so many Christians, lack the basic humility to acknowledge you might be wrong. If you are unable to follow Jesus' teachings, and you think the Bible is true, why on earth would I, when I do not believe it.
Being sure of yourself is what's sending you to hell.

As stated above--- we who follow Jesus aren't sure of ourselves. We're sure of Jesus, and only that because he gives us what's needed to be sure of him.

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths.​
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;​
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.​
8 It will be health to your flesh,​
And strength to your bones.​


The bible calls self-assurance, self-confidence-- pride, arrogance, foolishness, stupidity, and it's just plain dumb.
So..... why would you want to destroy yourself, when God is seeking to give you life, in exchange for your death.
Perhaps those who only pay lip service to the Bible will be joining me in the lake of fire..?
those who pay ONLY lip service, will have their own place in the lake of fire. Just like you will, should you, by the end of your life, refuse to place your trust in Jesus.
It's not going to be a party, where you all hang out together. It'll be a lonely, isolated, forever alone forever isolated place.

And as John Steinbeck's character in Grapes of Wrath said--- loneliness does something to a man, gets him sick in his head, sick in his heart.....
It's not a place you want to be.

Lip service is not actually serving God.
God and Jesus both deal with this in the bible.

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths​
And honor Me with their lips,​
But have removed their hearts far from Me,​
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,​

Your little routine---- the bible is true because the bible says it's true---- that's having your fear of God taught by the commands of men.
It's false, and stupid.
So.... why would you want to be either false, or stupid?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Looks like bias to me.
We who follow Jesus do so we can know whether it's true or not, instead of repeating the same old biases over and over.
It is after all written

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

If you were smarter, you'd take the time to follow those instructions, instead of playing the parrot.
How did you test if the Bible is true?

For a specific example, how did you test if Jesus really was seen in Jerusalem after his death? Last time your response was that that was what it says in the Bible. See if you can make a reply that does NOT assume the Bible is true.

I am absolutely certain you cannot, but sure, that is my bias. Prove me wrong, Steve.

they're only circular because you are acting like a parrot, instead of a human being.
Stop it!
Start being human.
No Steve, they are circular because they assume the Bible is true. The sightings of Jesus in Jerusalem are a great example. You assume they actually happened because that is what it says in the Bible.

He's only a monster to people who refuse to learn to think, and reason.... I.e., those who prefer, and actually believe acting stupid is a better way to live.
That makes him a monster.

I am sure Hitler was a nice guy to his friends. He was still a monster because he committed genocide. Same with God. If he treats some people in a monstrous manner, then he is a monster.

So. if you really think stupidity, and playing dumb is a good thing, then you'll get exactly what you want. An eternity in the lake of fire.
And you know that that because you just assume the Bible is true!

I've admitted to being wrong so many times, and stated this is exactly why I don't trust myself when it comes to knowing God.
But can you admit you were wrong to an atheist?

You clearly stated positrons bounce off electrons. That is laughably wrong.

But you are patently unable to admit you are wrong when an atheist got it right. You just cannot swallow your pride, can you Steve?

Seems to me that you can either act like a parrot, dumbly reciting what you think you know, or you can become an actual human being, and start learning why we who follow Jesus live as we do, and then start learning to follow Jesus.
And it seems to me that YOU can either act like a parrot, dumbly reciting what you think you know, or you can become an actual human being, and start thinking for yourself.

But let us be honest here, that will not happen.

The first thing to do is to stop leaning on your own understanding. It's embarrassing you.
Why Steve? Think I will say something stupid like:

"The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted."

I have not. That was YOU Steve; you are the one saying the most stupid things here. You are the one embarrassing yourself, not me.

Being sure of yourself is what's sending you to hell.
And yet I am the one with the humility to admit he could be wrong!

The bible calls self-assurance, self-confidence-- pride, arrogance, foolishness, stupidity, and it's just plain dumb.
So..... why would you want to destroy yourself, when God is seeking to give you life, in exchange for your death.
And your every post over-flows with that self-assurance and self-confidence! Come on Steve. Show some humility, and admit you might be wrong. Swallow your pride and admit you were wrong about positrons.

You cannot do it, can you? You can point out the pride in others, but you cannot deal with your own pride.

Jesus made a big deal about people like you. Just one example:

Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

But of course, the bible is not something you live by, is it Steve, just something you give lip-service to.

those who pay ONLY lip service, will have their own place in the lake of fire. Just like you will, should you, by the end of your life, refuse to place your trust in Jesus.
And yet that is exactly you, Steve.

Unable to swallow your pride, but hypocritically pointing it out in others. You merely pay lip-service to Jesus' teachings.

It's not going to be a party, where you all hang out together. It'll be a lonely, isolated, forever alone forever isolated place.
It will be God torturing those he pretends to love.

Your little routine---- the bible is true because the bible says it's true---- that's having your fear of God taught by the commands of men.
It's false, and stupid.
So.... why would you want to be either false, or stupid?
Of course it is false and stupid. But that seems to be the best argument Christianity can come up with.

But we will see what you can do. You assure us you have tested all things. We will see if you can rise to the challenge, and can provide an argument for the appearances of Jesus in Jerusalem after his death - without assuming the Bible is true, of course.

Would you like me to start a new thread where we can discuss it?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How did you test if the Bible is true?
1- by reading it.
2- by asking questions-- of people who had been at it longer than me, in a manner which wasn't argumentative. By asking questions of God, when it seemed the people whom I was asking didn't get it themselves.
3- by doing what it says.
4- by examining the results.
5- by working through the results, and my preconceptions' failures.
6- by reading again to make sure I understood what's actually being said, and not what I think was said.
7- by doing it again, with special attention to what's actually said, and deliberately rejecting my own biases.
8-- repeating this process outlined in 1-7, over and over again, for new passages that I read, showed clear items instructing us to act on them.




For a specific example, how did you test if Jesus really was seen in Jerusalem after his death? Last time your response was that that was what it says in the Bible. See if you can make a reply that does NOT assume the Bible is true.
that's a matter of historical testimony, and no matter how often I ask, it'll always be having to take the claim on faith.
Thus, I can either believe what is written, other's claim, or I can move on to other matters I can in fact verify for myself.

I've been doing 1-8 as detailed above, for so long now, and have verified that what I can do, and know, that what is documented as history in the bible, I can rest knowing that it too is true.

I think this is the major part of the problem people like you have. You spent so much time focusing on gnats, you ignore the elephants.


I am absolutely certain you cannot, but sure, that is my bias. Prove me wrong, Steve.
I just did.

No Steve, they are circular because they assume the Bible is true. The sightings of Jesus in Jerusalem are a great example. You assume they actually happened because that is what it says in the Bible.
Well, what "they" assume is their problem. not mine. Now, If I actually assume something, which I'm not able to deal with, then that's my problem.
but considering I have to assume that you're a real person, capable of real thought, and actual reasoning, just how do you want to play this?
I can stop assuming all of those, but that will just stop all conversation with you.

That makes him a monster.
Then I suppose you'll get exactly what you want. To be treated as you assume.

I am sure Hitler was a nice guy to his friends. He was still a monster because he committed genocide. Same with God. If he treats some people in a monstrous manner, then he is a monster.
I wouldn't know. But it seems to me that you just assumed.

And you know that that because you just assume the Bible is true!
And you assume that I assume the bible is true.
that does more to make an a88 out of you than it does me.

But can you admit you were wrong to an atheist?
I was never the kind of atheist you and others on the internet I've met/interacted with, are.
My atheism was just me living as selfishly as I felt warranted. My life was all about me, what I wanted, and my ego.
Whatever served my purposes, was how I lived, and "loved."


You clearly stated positrons bounce off electrons. That is laughably wrong.
It's a pity you never read the post I posted after that, to clarify my point. This just makes you laughably assumptive.

But you are patently unable to admit you are wrong when an atheist got it right. You just cannot swallow your pride, can you Steve?
I'm not the one who is desperate to be right.
I deal with my sin before God daily. Often several times throughout my days.

And it seems to me that YOU can either act like a parrot, dumbly reciting what you think you know, or you can become an actual human being, and start thinking for yourself.
What it seems to you just means that you assume to justify your ignorance, and make yourself out to sound superior. When in fact it makes you look like an a88.

But let us be honest here, that will not happen.
I've always been honest here. the Truth is far too much fun to do it any other way.

Why Steve? Think I will say something stupid like:

"The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted."

I have not. That was YOU Steve; you are the one saying the most stupid things here. You are the one embarrassing yourself, not me.
Isn't it nice to make yourself out to be a fool, while seeking to shame others?
The fact that you don't know how to read for the purpose of understanding makes this rant of your ironically hilarious.
Let me know if you ever grow up, and become an adult.
Otherwise, I'll have to stop assuming you're as nice a guy as you want others to assume you are.


And yet I am the one with the humility to admit he could be wrong!
It's ironic that you think humility is saying that you're wrong about the truth, when agreeing with the truth is the first step in humility.
I agree that Jesus is right, and so believe Him.
You agree that you are right about Jesus, and so call him a liar, a fraud, and non-existent.
there's nothing humble in your claims.

And your every post over-flows with that self-assurance and self-confidence! Come on Steve. Show some humility, and admit you might be wrong. Swallow your pride and admit you were wrong about positrons.
No. They overflow with confidence in God's ways, and Word. My posts overflow in assurance of who God is, and who Jesus is, and what they've accomplished in my life.
It's a pity you assume that you know the difference, and think that because you believe that God's not real, it has to be about me.
Your assumptions look poorly on you and you alone.


You cannot do it, can you? You can point out the pride in others, but you cannot deal with your own pride.
So, because you assume you are right, regardless of what the truth actually is, nobody else is right?
Based on what you're saying, it's not me with the problem here.


Jesus made a big deal about people like you. Just one example:

Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

But of course, the bible is not something you live by, is it Steve, just something you give lip-service to.
And once I take the log out of my eye, will I no longer see the speck in yours?
Because it's ignoring what God has said about us is assuming that you're right, and all others, who agree with God are wrong.
that's the speck you live with.
Granted, it could well be that you are the one who has the log, and it's me who has the speck.
You keep arguing you know better, and I'm the one who is wrong to believe God is real, and knowable.
What happens when you pull the log out of your eye?


And yet that is exactly you, Steve.

Unable to swallow your pride, but hypocritically pointing it out in others. You merely pay lip-service to Jesus' teachings.
So, my boast in what God has done on my behalf makes me proud.... rather curious how that works.
You're the one who spouts pride about what you achieve, without help from others.
I'm the one who spouts pride in what God has done on my behalf, and I'm the criminal.
Sounds like you have a log in your eye.
It will be God torturing those he pretends to love.
Nope. Your sin will torture you.

Of course it is false and stupid. But that seems to be the best argument Christianity can come up with.
More assumptions. Based entirely on ignorance of what the truth is.
Let God know when you grow weary of hauling your logs around.

But we will see what you can do. You assure us you have tested all things. We will see if you can rise to the challenge, and can provide an argument for the appearances of Jesus in Jerusalem after his death - without assuming the Bible is true, of course.
It's not me whom you need to have test all things.
It's you who needs to do so, in order to make sure you don't spend your life assuming matters you assume are wrong, because you don't believe them.


Would you like me to start a new thread where we can discuss it?
that's up to you.
It's clear you only want to win, so if I decide to further assume you're a real human being, who really wants to have an actual conversation, and not just assume you know everything, then I'll do so.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Can anyone explain to me why Dr. Lennox being a mathematician has any bearing on his metaphysical views? Why should his views get any more attention than any random guy on the Internet? Did he use mathematics in some way to prove some metaphysical truth? I don't get why this discussion is in the General Science/Mathematics forum.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Can anyone explain to me why Dr. Lennox being a mathematician has any bearing on his metaphysical views? Why should his views get any more attention than any random guy on the Internet? Did he use mathematics in some way to prove some metaphysical truth? I don't get why this discussion is in the General Science/Mathematics forum.
He's a follower of Jesus.
His experience in life, mathematics, etc.... they provide his perspective on such matters.
 
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