A short essay for the Brit who thinks "torture" is a synonym for "punishment"

[Lucian]

Torment
At Matthew 25:46 everlasting punishment is translated from the Greek kolasin which means cutting-off.

There’s no such word ‘kolasin’ in Greek, and it doesn’t mean ‘cutting-off’.

 

[Dizerner]

Here's a good lexicon I rely on:

2824. κόλασις kolasis noun

Chastisement, (penal) punishment.

Cognate:

κολάζω kolazō (2822)

Synonyms:

ἐκδίκησις ekdikēsis (1544)
ἐπιτιμία epitimia (1993)
τιμωρία timōria (4946)

Septuagint:

מִכְשֹׁל mikhshōl (4520), Stumbling block (Ezek 14:3, 4,7).

Grammatical Form:

1. κόλασιν kolasin acc sing fem

Concordance:

1 these shall go away into everlasting punishment: Matt 25:46
1 love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. 1 Jn 4:18

Word Studies:

Classical Greek

The noun kolasis is related to kolos, “docked, pruned, shortened” (of animals, “hornless”), and the verb kolazō (2822), which originally meant “to prune,” and in another sense “to check.” From this came the more familiar meaning “to punish, to torture.” The term may speak of disciplinary punishment in general, such as the punishment of slaves, or it may also concern physically hurting someone. It is possible that this last meaning denoted the nature of the punishment. The term carries a suggestion of pain, hence, “penal punishment.” Both the verb and the noun belong to Hellenistic legal terminology.

Septuagint Usage

In the Septuagint kolasis occurs most often in the apocryphal sources (e.g., Wisdom 11:13; 16:2; 2 Maccabees 4:38). Ezekiel employs kolasis as a translation of the Hebrew mikhshôl, “an offense or obstacle” (e.g., Ezekiel 14:3,7; 18:30; 44:12), and for kālam, “to be ashamed or to be put to shame” (Ezekiel 43:11). An instance in Jeremiah 18:20 has no Hebrew counterpart. Fourth Maccabees 8:9 speaks of the denai kolaseis, “great punishments,” which preceded the executions.

Intertestamental Period

Later, Philo and Josephus used kolasis concerning divine “retribution.” The issue in the pseudepigraphal Testament of Reuben (5:5) is kolasis aiōnion, “eternal punishment” (Bauer). Throughout these writings there is a common agreement that divine retribution is a consequence of sin and that eternal punishment includes chastisement along with eternal judgment (see Grider and Knapp, “Punish,” International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 3:1051–1054). It is this sense of kolasis that is carried into the New Testament usage.

New Testament Usage

The New Testament writers use both the verb (Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9) and the noun twice. Kolasis occurs in Matthew 25:46 of “eternal punishment.” The expression kolasin aiōnion in this verse contrasts zōēn aiōnion (“eternal life”). Both speak of an everlasting condition. It would be ignoring the evidence to suggest that the one expression meant “final” (punishment) and the other “everlasting” (life) (cf. 2 Thessalonians 1:9).
In 1 John 4:18 it is recorded that “fear has to do with punishment” (RSV). Some exegetes have interpreted this to mean that kolasis involves a constant feeling of fear. It is evident from the context (verse 17), however, that the contrast of this fear is to the “confidence for the day of judgment.” The fear must then be understood as a fear of punishment on the Day of Judgment (cf. Hebrews 10:27).

Resource Tools:

Strong <G2851>
Bauer 440–41
Moulton-Milligan 352
Kittel 3:816–17
Liddell-Scott 971
Colin Brown 3:98–99


Thoralf Gilbrant, “Κόλασις,” The New Testament Greek-English Dictionary, The Complete Biblical Library (WORDsearch, 1991).

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

There’s no such word ‘kolasin’ in Greek, and it doesn’t mean ‘cutting-off’.

From a very informative article here: According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, a work of such importance to the understanding of ancient Greek that ChristianBook.com claims that it is “used by every student of ancient Greek in the English-speaking world,” kolasin does in fact have the meaning of pruning, as well as correction.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

Here's a good lexicon I rely on:

You have to watch out for the tradition when resourcing. There is always bias.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

All torture is punishment.

WRONG! Ted Bundy tortured his victims but since he didn't know them, he obviously had nothing to even THINK he was punishing them for. John Wayne Gacy tortured cats as a child. What do you think he was punishing them for? And your logic is tortured, but no one is thereby punished.

Got any other idiotic threads you'd like to post .....

Why? I could never ever exceed in idiocy the idiotic comment you just posted above. You don't think your comments out too well, do you?

 

[Lucian]

From a very informative article here: According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, a work of such importance to the understanding of ancient Greek that ChristianBook.com claims that it is “used by every student of ancient Greek in the English-speaking world,” kolasin does in fact have the meaning of pruning, as well as correction.

Again, there's no such word as 'kolasin'. Kolasis means 'pruning' in the same sense that pneuma means 'fart'. In any case, it's plainly false to say in reference to Mt. 25:46 that "kolasin [sic]... means cutting-off".

The LSJ is a good (though flawed) resource, of course, but here it's a case of user error.

 

[mikeT]

WRONG! Ted Bundy tortured his victims but since he didn't know them, he obviously had nothing to even THINK he was punishing them for.

FAIL! Not even experts agree as to why Bundy tortured his victims, so you have NO credibility when you claim to know what he was or was-not thinking.

All torture is punishment.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

FAIL!

That's a verb. As a one word/verb sentence, it reads as a command. I'll pass. Not interested in emulating you.

All torture is punishment.

Prove it. Prove for example that Ted Bundy wanted to punish complete strangers. Make sure you tell us what he thought these complete strangers had done to him worthy of punishment.

I've noticed something about you. You're not very sharp, are you?

 

[Lucian]

All torture is punishment.

I’m not so sure. Much torture has been carried out for pleasure, or to encourage confessions or honesty. Retribution or correction needn’t be involved.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

All torture is punishment.

Are you trying to convince yourself?

Got any other idiotic threads you'd like to post, because this one's done.

Give up?

 

[John Milton]

Again, there's no such word as 'kolasin'. Kolasis means 'pruning' in the same sense that pneuma means 'fart'. In any case, it's plainly false to say in reference to Mt. 25:46 that "kolasin [sic]... means cutting-off".

The LSJ is a good (though flawed) resource, of course, but here it's a case of user error.

There is such a word as "kolasin". It is an inflected form of the dictionary entry "kolasis" as one of the sources cited above correctly states.

 

[SteveB]

Okay, so you are saying when you father spanked you as punishment that that was torture?

According to the definition YOU provided, that's what it sounds like you're claiming.

So what is your point, Steve? You seem to be agreeing with me that inflicting suffering as punishment is indeed torture.

You're the one whose saying that punishment is not torture and torture is not punishment.
Yet you used a description from a dictionary which used the phrase--- extended pain.
Thus, I said that according to your own use, my dad tortured me when he spanked me as a child.

I certainly do not know what you are talking about. Perhaps you need to think though what you actually want to say.

Well, if that's true, you've just become an idiot, and I'm not buying that at all.
Stop equivocating because you got caught, and just own it.

So you are saying it only appears to be torture? How so? Is it not really punishment? Is it not actually that painful?

I'm saying that you're full of BS, and realized it, and now you're trying to hide.

I do not know what? Please just to make your point Steve. You seem convinced that you have something to say here, but unable to say what it is!

I did already.

Great story Steve, but so what?

In your present state, you're like me as a child, when I did wrong, and my dad told me he'd spank me for my wrong.
In like manner, YHVH is going to punish you. The difference is that your punishment will last forever.

Are you saying this guy was tortured as a kid? Or not?

Not all punishment is torture. It is torture if severe suffering is inflicted - for example if you get tossed into a lake of fire for eternity. Were you tortured as a kid? Was this guy? If not, then how is this relevant? If so, well then you are making my point for me.


Right, because now you are describing it as "an eternity separated from God". The Bible, however, describes it as God sending me to a lake of fire to burn for ever. And that is torture.


Was that pain torture, Steve? Please decide one way or the other.


If a slave owner warns his slave not to run away, and the slaves runs away, but is caught, and consequently gets whipped almost to death, that is torture. And just as you say here, the slave owner warned the slave. He repeatedly described the truth and consequences.


But it does highlight the incoherent nature of Christianity.


If God is still torturing billions in a lake of fire, Jesus failed.


Not punishment, so not relevant.

Are you paying attention here, Steve?

The question is-- are you?
Because you seem to be doing everything you can to escape culpability for your very impressive dedication to willful, and deliberate ignorance.

 

[mikeT]

I’m not so sure. Much torture has been carried out for pleasure, or to encourage confessions or honesty. Retribution or correction needn’t be involved.

WRT pleasure, it's derived from the punishment. Some people enjoy subjecting others to extreme punishment.

Torturing people to encourage confessions or honesty is punishment for the person not having met the desired goal; the punishment stops when the goal is met (or at least, that's the implied outcome).

Retribution / correction is always involved when someone is being tortured. Always.

 

[The Pixie]

torture
noun: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

According to the definition YOU provided, that's what it sounds like you're claiming.

The dictionary clearly states that causing intense pain to punish is torture.

If you honestly believe being spanked caused you intense pain - and that your father intended that you feel intense pain - then it was torture.

You're the one whose saying that punishment is not torture and torture is not punishment.

I am saying they are not synonyms, that is just stiggy's straw man. You can have punishment without torture if there is no intense pain. You can have torture for coercion or sadistic pleasure, rather than punishment. However, causing intense pain to punish is torture

This is just reiterating the dictionary definition; you should be able to work this out for yourself.

Yet you used a description from a dictionary which used the phrase--- extended pain.
Thus, I said that according to your own use, my dad tortured me when he spanked me as a child.

It uses the phrase "intense pain". If you insist that according to the dictionary definition you were tortured, then yes, you were tortured. I am not sure quite what you expect from me here?

Well, if that's true, you've just become an idiot, and I'm not buying that at all.
Stop equivocating because you got caught, and just own it.

How so?

I'm saying that you're full of BS, and realized it, and now you're trying to hide.

How so?

As far as I can see, according to the dictionary definition, Matthew 25 tells us that God tortures all those who reject him. All you seem to be saying here is that your father spanked you, therefore it is not torture. What is your reasoning here?

Are you saying you want to believe what your father did to you was not torture, therefore the dictionary is wrong?

I would suggest it is more likely that the pain you felt was not intense enough to count as torture. And if it really was that intense, then it really was torture.

In your present state, you're like me as a child, when I did wrong, and my dad told me he'd spank me for my wrong.
In like manner, YHVH is going to punish you. The difference is that your punishment will last forever.

Which is torture.

The question is-- are you?
Because you seem to be doing everything you can to escape culpability for your very impressive dedication to willful, and deliberate ignorance.

How can I love God?

Firstly, I do not believe he exist, and whenever I ask you what convinced you that the Bible is true, all you have are Bible verses that assume it is true.

Secondly, how can I love and worship a god who is right now torturing billions of people for exercising their basic human right to freedom of religion?

 

[Lucian]

There is such a word as "kolasin".

No, there isn’t.

It is an inflected form of the dictionary entry "kolasis" as one of the sources cited above correctly states.

Well, duh.

 

[Lucian]

WRT pleasure, it's derived from the punishment. Some people enjoy subjecting others to extreme punishment.

Torturing people to encourage confessions or honesty is punishment for the person not having met the desired goal; the punishment stops when the goal is met (or at least, that's the implied outcome).

Retribution / correction is always involved when someone is being tortured. Always.

So you say, but this seems very strained. I see no reason to grant that all cases of torture for pleasure necessitate that the pleasure consists in punishment (rather than, say, the victim’s screams simpliciter, or a more diffuse sadism). Likewise, I don’t see in what sense it’s to punish someone if one is torturing them to preemptively ensure they tell the truth, which doesn’t involve any aspect of retribution or correction at all: it’s purely instrumental, as in the case of basanos in classical Athens.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

WRT pleasure, it's derived from the punishment. Some people enjoy subjecting others to extreme punishment.

Torturing people to encourage confessions or honesty is punishment for the person not having met the desired goal; the punishment stops when the goal is met (or at least, that's the implied outcome).

Retribution / correction is always involved when someone is being tortured. Always.

What utter nonsense. If someone is tortured to extract information, the motive is just that: to extract information. The torturer may not even KNOW his victim nor anything about him. If you asked him, "Why are you torturing this guy," if the torturer DID say, "to punish him," the next question would be "For what?" The torturer would not say, "Because he has not met my desired goal."

Punishment can occur for one of two reasons or for a combination of both: Remedial or justice. As far as remedial, most torturers don't give a damn about improving the character of their victims and if let's say, they are waterboarding to extract a confession, I'll bet they seldom fancy themselves as righteous Judges administering justice. Some MIGHT, but it is not required I'm sure.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Secondly, how can I love and worship a god who is right now torturing billions of people for exercising their basic human right to freedom of religion?

You can't. For two reasons:

(1). You are not so monstrous yourself as to love and worship such a monster.

(2). You would be an idiot to worship a mere figment of your imagination, whether based on an idiotic interpretation of scripture, as in this case, or not.

 

[John Milton]

No, there isn’t.

I'm sorry, buddy. You're dead wrong.
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
The transliteration of the underlined word is "kolasin".

Well, duh.

You can act like I'm the one who is ignorant if you want to, but you are the one confusing entry words with words.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

Again, there's no such word as 'kolasin'. Kolasis means 'pruning' in the same sense that pneuma means 'fart'. In any case, it's plainly false to say in reference to Mt. 25:46 that "kolasin [sic]... means cutting-off".

The LSJ is a good (though flawed) resource, of course, but here it's a case of user error.

All resources are flawed. That includes you and I. The errors accumulate due to this fact, which makes this probably one of the most interesting posts I've read in over a quarter of a century of doing this.

This is what I do when I encounter something like this. I see the error, but I don't assume that I know where it's coming from if I don't have enough information. I ask questions. 99% of the time I get no answers so I move on.

My question to you here is, to start, what is the difference between translation and transliteration and what does pneuma mean?