A song for those who disparage God for "watching us suffer"

5wize

Well-known member
Ginger Baker used to be a neighbor of mine in Colorado
Used to sit on my deck in the evenings and listen to him drumming...

He raised horses, polo ponies - in the summers he would compete in a weekly polo match and then afterwards perform a free concert with his jazz ensemble at the local pavilion/bandstand

As famous for his surly demeanor as his drumming, but he was pleasant enough with me on the handful of occasions that I interacted with him!
That is very cool. Never heard him perform Jazz. I honestly didn't think he had it in him... like when Neil Pert tried. As phenomenal as he was, the funk and jazz where abysmal. As was Buddy Rich's attempts at anything outside contemporary big band. Well rounded drummers are the likes of Steve Gadd, Steve Smith, Simon Phillips, Omar Hakim, etc....
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
That is very cool. Never heard him perform Jazz. I honestly didn't think he had it in him... like when Neil Pert tried. As phenomenal as he was, the funk and jazz where abysmal. As was Buddy Rich's attempts at anything outside contemporary big band. Well rounded drummers are the likes of Steve Gadd, Steve Smith, Simon Phillips, Omar Hakim, etc....
I enjoyed his playing - although, not being a musician myself, I realize those who understand music theory might hear it differently...
 
Last edited:

5wize

Well-known member
I enjoyed his playing - although, not being a musician myself, I realize those who understand music theory might hear it differently...
I'm probably being too harsh. Musicians get that way. We form camps. Ginger was always outside mine. Never felt his influence pulling me and there is a circle that sees him as over-rated that I happen to agree with, but not a slouch obviously. Hell, I wasn't in Cream so.... there's that.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member

I'm probably being too harsh. Musicians get that way. We form camps. Ginger was always outside mine. Never felt his influence pulling me and there is a circle that sees him as over-rated that I happen to agree with, but not a slouch obviously. Hell, I wasn't in Cream so.... there's that.
The video isn't very good, but kind of a cool little drum battle here:
 
Words by the great poet William Blake:

This does nothing to explain why it is loving for an omnipotent God to watch millions suffer from Covid.

Let me ask you - do you believe God has the power to cure Covid? Yes? Follow that and see where it gets you. The end of that logic is not a loving god.

Would you give millions of people Covid if you could? Would you give people cancer? If you could cure all the cancer in the world world you? If yes then follow that logic and see where it gets you as well.

If you need to believe in a higher power to cope with grief and suffering I totally get it - I wish you well. But I do not think you should go on message boards with atheists and claim that your belief makes any sense. It does not.

I hope you faith brings you comfort though. I hope my Hindu friend's faith in Ganesha helps them. I hope my Scientologist, Wiccan, and Mormon friends find comfort.

But it is probably not a great idea to argue this in a Socratic debate. Belief in an omnipotent, loving God just does not match reality or stand up to the simplest argument of cause and effect.

"Earth who gives to us our food
Sun who makes it ripe and good,
Dearest earth and dearest sun,
Joy and Love for all you've done."

-- Wiccan Prayer
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
This does nothing to explain why it is loving for an omnipotent God to watch millions suffer from Covid.

Why do you insist on God turning His back on sufferers and NOT watching over them?

Let me ask you - do you believe God has the power to cure Covid? Yes? Follow that and see where it gets you. The end of that logic is not a loving god.

IN ONE STEP: "God doesn't cure all diseases immediately, therefore God not loving."

Just imagine how people like Aquinas, Augustine, Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, Barth, Carlyle, Pascal, Billy Graham, Miguel de Unamuno, Gabriel Marcel, Emil Brunner, George MacDonald, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Simone Weil, Flannery O'Connor, John Milton, Charles Kingsley and hundreds of others could have saved themselves and the world a lot of time if only CARM had been around for them to have read this constant message from you."

"UNPLEASANTRIES HAPPEN AND GOD DOESN'T STOP THEM, THUS THERE IS NO LOVING GOD."

Imagine, say C.S. Lewis stumbling upon an LHA post expressing the above deeeep sentiment for the 876th time, and saying to himself:

"Gee, I never thought of that," as he ripped apart his half finished manuscript of "The Problem of Pain."
 
Why do you insist on God turning His back on sufferers and NOT watching over them?
I insist on God helping those who are suffering. I think watching over them while they suffer is sadistic, cruel, and evil.

It is not that I do not want God to watch. I want him to stop suffering, to cure cancer, to cure Covid, to feed the children that are starving to death.

I cannot believe that anyone would argue against that. Its insane or at least psychopathic. Your need to believe in God is making you take a sadistic and psychopathic stance. I hope you see that one day. But if not that's cool too.
IN ONE STEP: "God doesn't cure all diseases immediately, therefore God not loving."
Correct. How could you possible argue against this statement? If we find out that a hospital has 1,000 doses of the Covid vaccine and they decided to just watch people die of Covid we'd incarcerate them. How can you possibly see that as kind?
Just imagine how people like Aquinas, Augustine, Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, Barth, Carlyle, Pascal, Billy Graham, Miguel de Unamuno, Gabriel Marcel, Emil Brunner, George MacDonald, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Simone Weil, Flannery O'Connor, John Milton, Charles Kingsley and hundreds of others could have saved themselves and the world a lot of time if only CARM had been around for them to have read this constant message from you."
I think it is human to need to believe in a benign creator in a world of suffering. The reason all those brilliant people agonized over it is because it is so clearly logical that an omnipotent God does not love us that they had to write volumes to try and make sense of it. And they failed.

In the end people are dying of Covid and God is watching. Your list of impressive names does not change that. Neither did their arguments.
"UNPLEASANTRIES HAPPEN AND GOD DOESN'T STOP THEM, THUS THERE IS NO LOVING GOD."
Don't gaslight. I never said 'unpleasant'. Don't try to soften it. I said suffering. No one thinks dying of Covid is 'unpleasant'. No one sees their child dying of bone cancer and says, 'my - how unpleasant.'

Gaslighting me will not work I'm afraid. You have to address why it is loving for God to withhold the cure for Covid while millions suffer. And you cannot.
Imagine, say C.S. Lewis stumbling upon an LHA post expressing the above deeeep sentiment for the 876th time, and saying to himself:

"Gee, I never thought of that," as he ripped apart his half finished manuscript of "The Problem of Pain."
CS Lewis was a great author. But his apologetics aware horribly flawed and are easily debunked. His 'Lunatic, Liar, Lord' is an absurd argument.

You are making the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy. You can post the names of all the smart people you like. It will not mke it OK for God to watch children starve to death when he could drop manna on them with a thought.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
I insist on God helping those who are suffering. I think watching over them while they suffer is sadistic, cruel, and evil.

So you think nurses are sadistic, cruel, and evil.

It is not that I do not want God to watch. I want him to stop suffering, to cure cancer, to cure Covid, to feed the children that are starving to death.

No you don't. If you did, you'd pray that He would. You're all talk, no action.

CS Lewis was a great author. But his apologetics aware horribly flawed and are easily debunked. His 'Lunatic, Liar, Lord' is an absurd argument.

Sorry pal, but tossing out one self serving adjective does not qualify as debunking. You're not qualified to iron Lewis' trousers.

Question: Do you also require God to cure hangnails?
 
So you think nurses are sadistic, cruel, and evil.
Gaslighting. I never came close to saying this. I work in the medical industry with nurses every day and I think they are freaking American heroes.
No you don't. If you did, you'd pray that He would. You're all talk, no action.
I have. I have prayed for world peace and an end to disease. Billions of Christians pray for this every day too. So far we are still in a fallen world of pain and suffering created by and ruled by God.

Do you have a plan B?
Sorry pal, but tossing out one self serving adjective does not qualify as debunking. You're not qualified to iron Lewis' trousers.
I do not even know what this means so I'll just nod quietly.
Question: Do you also require God to cure hangnails?
You have tried this before - it is the well known Reductio ad Absurdum logical fallacy and should be discarded.

While you talk about hang nails 3,000 more Americans died in pain, fear, and agony from Covid yesterday - many of them Christians who are praying to God. And God did nothing while they screamed and writhed and their families cried out in grief.

3,000 more will die today as God refuses to cure the disease. And 26,000 died yesterday after long, painful battles with cancer. 10,000 children under the age of ten will slowly starve to death today in agony. Over 1,000 women will be raped as God watches and does nothing to help them. Over 100,000 abortions will be performed while God does nothing to save the unborn. And so on and so on.

Your hang nail argument is not only illogical and nonsensical - it is an insult to their pain and suffering.
 

The Pixie

Active member
So you haven't thought it out too well. Skinned knees? Get back with me when you've fleshed out your "pain, so no god'' shtick beyond mere sloganeering.
Is your hang nail argument really the best Christianity can offer?

You cite CS Lewis. Did he use the hang nail argument? Or did he have something better to offer? Or something even worse?
 

Lucian

Member
3,000 more will die today as God refuses to cure the disease. And 26,000 died yesterday after long, painful battles with cancer. 10,000 children under the age of ten will slowly starve to death today in agony. Over 1,000 women will be raped as God watches and does nothing to help them. Over 100,000 abortions will be performed while God does nothing to save the unborn. And so on and so on.
You say things like this fairly frequently. What your position seems to boil down to is that God could not possess a sufficient reason to justify the evils that occur in the world. I think the theist is entitled to ask how you know this.
 
So you haven't thought it out too well. Skinned knees? Get back with me when you've fleshed out your "pain, so no god'' shtick beyond mere sloganeering.
This is the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy - again. You are saying that people need to die slowly in terror and pain because otherwise we'd have to cure skinned knees. It is a well known logical fallacy because it does not work.

You still cannot explain why God is watching people suffer and die from Covid when he can cure it. Skinned knees does not explain that. If God exists then He is a sadist who enjoys watching 3,000 Americans suffer and die every day while withholding the cure.

You have done zero to explain that.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
This is the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy - again. You are saying that people need to die slowly in terror and pain because otherwise we'd have to cure skinned knees. It is a well known logical fallacy because it does not work.

Stop bloviating and answer my question. Do you or do you not require God to intervene with skinned knees?

You still cannot explain why God is watching people suffer......

Because He is omnipresent and does not turn His back on suffering.
 
You say things like this fairly frequently. What your position seems to boil down to is that God could not possess a sufficient reason to justify the evils that occur in the world. I think the theist is entitled to ask how you know this.
My point boils down to the idea that no loving being creates Covid, gives it to humanity, and watches it cause suffering and pain to millions.

I know this because I see Covid, starvation, and suffering around me. I know this is wrong based on my own subjective morality. I personally think it is wrong to give people lethal diseases that cause suffering. The world agrees with me by the way - that is why it is against the Geneva Convention for a person or nation to intentionally spread disease among a population as God is doing with Covid.

So I know if God exists then he chooses to cause unimaginable suffering among humans. If He is omnipotent then he can cure this suffering and chooses not to. If he is omniscient then he sees all the suffering and just watches it.

I know this is wrong because of my own subjective morality which is based on kindness, love, compassion, and empathy.

God's morality is based on sadism.

What is your counter argument to that? Or do you also have a moral code based on inflicting suffering on others while you watch?
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Thankfully - The song didn't call for it and Ginger was a complete slouch. He had zero funk in him.
So true! He's one of my least-favorite idolized-drummers for a number of reasons, and his utter lack of funk is one of them. He's praised for his jazz abilities - but have you SEEN him try to swing? I thought *I* was white...

Great job with the e-kit mixed with acoustic cymbals. Sounds great. I'm really digging your guitar player on Aint Wastin Time...
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
My point boils down to the idea that no loving being creates Covid, gives it to humanity, and watches it cause suffering and pain to millions.

I know this because I see Covid, starvation, and suffering around me. I know this is wrong based on my own subjective morality. I personally think it is wrong to give people lethal diseases that cause suffering. The world agrees with me by the way - that is why it is against the Geneva Convention for a person or nation to intentionally spread disease among a popltherulation as God is doing with Covid.

So I know if God exists then he chooses to cause unimaginable suffering among humans. If He is omnipotent then he can cure this suffering and chooses not to. If he is omniscient then he sees all the suffering and just watches it.

I know this is wrong because of my own subjective morality which is based on kindness, love, compassion, and empathy.

God's morality is based on sadism.

What is your counter argument to that? Or do you also have a moral code based on inflicting suffering on others while you watch?

Why blather on about Covid? God is about to unleash far worse inflictions upon humanity and will watch, yes WATCH it happen. See Revelation.
 
Stop bloviating and answer my question. Do you or do you not require God to intervene with skinned knees?
Reductio ad Absurdum logical fallacy. No reply needed.
Because He is omnipresent and does not turn His back on suffering.
I agree - God watches people suffer.

Stop bloviating and explain how that is good and loving. Explain how it is OK to cause humans to suffer and then watch it. In America we call that a felony. You can Google it but it is considered immoral by most people.

I am not sure what you call it in Christianity.
 
Top