A tale of two statements

Tiburon said:
Most Christians believe Christianity simply because they were born into a society that accepted it as true and they never questioned it.
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Evidence? Even in the cases where that was true I doubt they would give that as the reason they are Christians.
Tiburon said:
Others believe Christianity because it strikes some emotional cord and/or they have had some profound experience that they relate to Christianity.
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I am not saying that their entire belief is based on evidence, of course there is emotional aspects to it to a greater or lesser extent depending on the person.
Tiburon said:
They then come up with evidence to validate their belief. Confirmation bias.
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Again, even if true in some cases, they would not agree with that assessment.

Tiburon said:
Very few Christians actually believe purely and simply because of evidence.
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I did and I know of others, but I agree that it usually includes an emotional component to it. Most humans are not Mr. Spock, including atheists. Their nonbelief usually has an emotional component to it as well.
 
SteveB said:
Is the miracle status of my remission true because the doctors say so, or did their attestation to my miraculous survival simply acknowledge the truth that I am a miracle?
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Wait... you think the doctors really meant to say that you're an *actual* miracle? You don't think they were just using that word as a figure of speech like every English speaker does?
 
King Charisma said:
Wait... you think the doctors really meant to say that you're an *actual* miracle? You don't think they were just using that word as a figure of speech like every English speaker does?
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A curious thing when 9 different doctors, say the same thing over the course of 20 years, at each appointment, and when I question them about it they were sure about it and they each affirm that I am indeed a miracle for surviving advanced metastatic melanoma cancer for so long.

So..... yeah. Surprised me far more than you can possibly conceive. I'm the one who is still alive after living with a disease for 35+ years that typically kills within one to two years.

Personally, I'd say that God just likes letting people know what he's ready to do on behalf of those who believe in Jesus.


So, how about a clear answer to my question.
 
King Charisma said:
"It is true therefore I must believe it"
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= FAITH (Heb 11:1) When based on God's WORD to you (Rom 10:17)
King Charisma said:
"I believe it, therefore it must be true"
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= Presumption - based on nothing. This is the MAIN PROBLEM with much of popular/toxic "Word of Faith" theologies.
King Charisma said:
My contention is that theistic believers see little distinction between these statements.
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Which demonstrates your ignorance of Biblically based "Theistic Believers". No argument about there being "Lunatic Fringers".
 
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King Charisma said:
"It is true therefore I must believe it"

"I believe it, therefore it must be true"

My contention is that theistic believers see little distinction between these statements.
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What theistic believers are you talking to? Do you really think theists are that stupid?

Your really think that a theist like me--thinks that God exists----becasue I believe God exists?

You really need to get out more--you mustn't know or have talked to many theists.
 
King Charisma said:
My answer is I don't accept that it's a bona fide miracle.
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Chuckle!!! When Jesus resurrected Lazarus after 4 days in the tomb, it didn't convince everybody either. The Cardios gave me until 2004, so the joke's on them too. BUT HEY!!!! Some folks wouldn't recognize a MIRACLE if it bit 'em in the face.
 
El Cid said:
Evidence? Even in the cases where that was true I doubt they would give that as the reason they are Christians.

I am not saying that their entire belief is based on evidence, of course there is emotional aspects to it to a greater or lesser extent depending on the person.

Again, even if true in some cases, they would not agree with that assessment.


I did and I know of others, but I agree that it usually includes an emotional component to it. Most humans are not Mr. Spock, including atheists. Their nonbelief usually has an emotional component to it as well.
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Then two questions arise: is the emotional element necessary and/or sufficient? Is the evidential element necessary and/or sufficient?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
What theistic believers are you talking to? Do you really think theists are that stupid?

Your really think that a theist like me--thinks that God exists----becasue I believe God exists?

You really need to get out more--you mustn't know or have talked to many theists.
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Obviously he does, and SOME OF 'EM are. Popular/Toxic WoF operations prove it.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Chuckle!!! When Jesus resurrected Lazarus after 4 days in the tomb, it didn't convince everybody either. The Cardios gave me until 2004, so the joke's on them too. BUT HEY!!!! Some folks wouldn't recognize a MIRACLE if it bit 'em in the face.
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Actually--this is quite true and something the atheists don't get.

The miracles wrought by Jesus or the apostles in the Bible--didn't lead people to Faith. If this is the case in the Scriptures, then it is true today. Miracles will not lead atheists to Faith anymore than they lead people to Faith in the Scriptures.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
What theistic believers are you talking to? Do you really think theists are that stupid?
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I have observed that Christians are operating under a different concept of belief. They treat belief as a prescriptive statement of reality, not a descriptive one.

Do you believe that your thoughts create God? Probably not. It's probably something closer to "I believe it, therefore it must be true."
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Chuckle!!! When Jesus resurrected Lazarus after 4 days in the tomb, it didn't convince everybody either. The Cardios gave me until 2004, so the joke's on them too. BUT HEY!!!! Some folks wouldn't recognize a MIRACLE if it bit 'em in the face.
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If "miracle" was an acceptable explanation for any physiological phenomena then we'd still be in the leech and mercury days of medicine. There's nothing supernatural about remission, no matter how incredulous you seem to be.

The fact that you are certain that it's a miracle is an example of the second type of thinking, i.e. I believe it, and that makes it true.
 
King Charisma said:
I have observed that Christians are operating under a different concept of belief. They treat belief as a prescriptive statement of reality, not a descriptive one.

Do you believe that your thoughts create God? Probably not. It's probably something closer to "I believe it, therefore it must be true."
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The other Christians on this website might not agree with me, but I can only speak for myself here.

I will grant that the evidence for God's existence is not conclusive. But the atheist must also grant that the evidence for atheism is not conclusive. Now the atheist might point out that the burden of proof is on the theist. Proving a negative with certainty is impossible. Fine--but still, the evidence for God's non-existence is not conclusive. By this I mean--most of the atheist critiques of theist arguments------fail to understand what the theist is and is not asserting. They are also based on cartoonish images of God that real theists would reject as accurate depictions of the true reality of God.

What I believe is that the evidence FOR God's existence while not conclusive------suggests that it is more likely that God exists than God does not exist. Put in legal jargon: if theists were in a court of law, we might not be able to prove God's existence beyond a reasonable doubt, but I think we CAN meet the hurdle of "preponderance of the evidence" meaning--it is more likely true that God exists, than God does not exist.

Thus, for me, if it more likely true that God exists, than God does not exist, I fail to see why it is irrational for me to believe in the existence of God when I have considered the evidence for and against the belief.
 
King Charisma said:
My answer is I don't accept that it's a bona fide miracle.
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Not my concern.
You changed the OP.

My question was quite simple and dealt explicitly with your question.
You originally said: said:
It is true therefore I must believe it"

"I believe it, therefore it must be true"

My contention is that theistic believers see little distinction between these statements.
I then stated in post #39 said:
Ok.
I am a stage four metastatic melanoma cancer survivor.

I've been in remission since February 2004.

Ever since 1999, my oncologists, and doctors have been saying that my survival is a miracle.

Is the miracle status of my remission true because the doctors say so, or did their attestation to my miraculous survival simply acknowledge the truth that I am a miracle?
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I'm following the same logic you're claiming in your own OP.

Is the status of my survival miraculous because the doctors say so?

Or are they simply acknowledging what is already true, before they became aware of it?

You believing that I'm a miracle is immaterial.

Is what the truth is dependent on the attestation of it, or does the truth of their attestation predate their recognition, and they're simply acknowledging what already is true?
 
King Charisma said:
"It is true therefore I must believe it"

"I believe it, therefore it must be true"

My contention is that theistic believers see little distinction between these statements.
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Ok, since you've had a problem with the medical profession's attestation that I'm a medical miracle because I have survived a heretofore deadly disease, let's do it this way.

Did gravity exist before the awareness, and ability to describe gravity, or did it only exist once the first time it was described by humans?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Actually--this is quite true and something the atheists don't get.

The miracles wrought by Jesus or the apostles in the Bible--didn't lead people to Faith. If this is the case in the Scriptures, then it is true today. Miracles will not lead atheists to Faith anymore than they lead people to Faith in the Scriptures.
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As I grow older, I've found that when you allow yourself to see God's hand in circumstances, and events in your life, pretty soon you'll see His hand in almost everything.

Reminds me of the old story of the businessman who was running late for a VERY important meeting. He still had a few minutes, but the parking lot at the venue was completely full. And for the first time, he prayed - "O God, if you'll get me a parking space, I'll quit cheating on my wife, I'll stop overcharging people, I won't drink any more! I'll even GO TO CHURCH this Sunday"!!!

And just then a truck pulls out of a space RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR!!!

And the man says: "Oh, never mind God, I found one myself".
 
Bob Carabbio said:
As I grow older, I've found that when you allow yourself to see God's hand in circumstances, and events in your life, pretty soon you'll see His hand in almost everything.
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Indeed!
And I'm thinking that's exactly what they're terrified of.
The very thought that they'd be accountable to Him for their lives is a discombobulator.

Bob Carabbio said:
Reminds me of the old story of the businessman who was running late for a VERY important meeting. He still had a few minutes, but the parking lot at the venue was completely full. And for the first time, he prayed - "O God, if you'll get me a parking space, I'll quit cheating on my wife, I'll stop overcharging people, I won't drink any more! I'll even GO TO CHURCH this Sunday"!!!

And just then a truck pulls out of a space RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR!!!

And the man says: "Oh, never mind God, I found one myself".
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Yep.

What would have been amusing is if a tiny sports car zipped into the space as the businessman finished his statement. Leaving him utterly consternated.
 
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