A tale of two statements

El Cid

Well-known member
The evidence is in the science textbooks, publications, and online public databases (eg., PubMed), the world over, but you turn your nose up at them because you would rather believe in superstitions and myths which are nothing more than bad interpretations of scriptures. Whereas, they were meant to be allegorized: “Now this may be allegorized” (Gal 4:24).
Most all of those publications assume there is no Creator God. So of course they are going to assume that resurrection is impossible. But If He exists, then it is quite possible. Paul was just stating that the mothers of Abrahams two mothers of his two sons could be allegorized showing the difference between the physical Jerusalem and spiritual Jerusalem. He is not saying that the two mothers and the events surrounding them never existed or occurred.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Most all of those publications assume there is no Creator God. So of course they are going to assume that resurrection is impossible.
Nope, science assumes nothing about God one way or the other. Science only studies what it can study and resurrected dead people cannot be studied because it does not happen except in mythological stories.

But If He exists, then it is quite possible.
Only in your imagination and in mythology do dead things reassemble their decomposing bodies. You might as well believe that a phoenix returns to the temple of ra every five hundred years to die and be reborn or that Osiris returned to life or that Dionysius reassembled his body because Gods can do the impossible and it is recorded in literature. Do you see that you are no different than those who once believed Egyptian or Greek mythology but you would never concede that these other named gods were resurrected from death? You want to think your story is real but everyone elses stories were made up. You want to think that you are special and your god is special but the fact is these are all myths with an underlying religious meaning. The religious meaning is what we are after not the supernatural Hollywood movie spectacular. What does it mean, is the question?

What does it mean when Paul writes, We have been raised up with Christ? (Col 3:1) Did Paul ever explicitly write that a dead human reassembled his decomposing corpse, remove the lid off his coffin, and exit a dirt grave? Nope. The Gospel stories are myth embellishing spiritual concepts expounded by Paul in his epistles. You have been fooled into thinking the Gospel stories are historical events when actually they are mythological stories. Did the “spirit of Jesus”, aka, Holy Spirit and Lord, rise in humanity as a moral consciousness and raise us up from ignorance of God and sin to knowledge of God and virtuous living? YES! For some more than others. In order to drive that point home for less abstract thinkers a few authors came up with the Gospel myths. Unfortunately, less abstract thinkers persecuted, exiled, and imprisoned the abstract thinkers in church history. You received the less abstract thinkers version of events.

Paul was just stating that the mothers of Abrahams two mothers of his two sons could be allegorized showing the difference between the physical Jerusalem and spiritual Jerusalem. He is not saying that the two mothers and the events surrounding them never existed or occurred.
Nope. Paul allegorized mythological stories in Hebrew scripture, as did Philo, the Essenes, and gnostic Christians. Everyone allegorized scripture except for the Pharisees and Christian orthodoxy. Do you see the company that you are in? The orthodoxy who rejected Paul for allegorizing Hebrew myths also rejected gnostic Christians for allegorizing myths for their intended meaning. You have scales over your eyes and are unable to see with clear mental vision so you are harping about mythologic stories as if they actually happened. You are spinning your wheels and going no where. And the more time you waste defending myths the further you drift from their intended meaning because rather than defending truth you instead become (have made yourself) its enemy.

”But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted… Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.” (2 cor 3:14)​
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
What does it mean when Paul writes, We have been raised up with Christ? (Col 3:1) Did Paul ever explicitly write that a dead human reassembled his decomposing corpse, remove the lid off his coffin, and exit a dirt grave? Nope. The Gospel stories are myth embellishing spiritual concepts expounded by Paul in his epistles.

@El Cid
I wanted to demonstrate from scripture what I claimed above. I did a brief search of Paul’s epistles for the word “resurrection” and came up with the small list below. Please note that no where does Paul describe a decomposing human reassembling his body and walking, climbing, crawling, or teleporting out of an earthen grave. Instead, resurrection is always interpreted from scripture and associated either with a moral consciousness arising in humans or a bodily resurrection of Christ as a culmination of the “third day” (1 cor 15:4) which according to the Dead Sea Scrolls is not solar days. The ”days” of creation signify something entirely different, specifically, incarnations of YHWH-Elohim on earth throughout human history, sometimes referred to as angels, prophets, or kings. At the time of Paul’s writing five of the days had already come, one was, presumably, in Paul, and one more day yet remained.

“they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.” (Rev 17:10)

Everyone takes the “three days” literally as solar days but Paul is describing heavenly events, angelic movements on earth, the plan of God unfolding in the universe. It cannot be seen with the human eyes but perceived by the mind alone via wisdom, right reason, or spiritual insight.

But set the meaning of the “three days” aside. I only mentioned it to demonstrate that Paul was describing three incarnations of YHWH-Elohim that must take place BEFORE the new beginning of heaven and earth per the Dead Sea Scrolls.

As I set out to do in this post, here is the list of resurrection verses. Again, please note how no human crawls, walks, flies, or teleports out of a human grave. It is always tied to the allegorizing of Hebrew scripture, frequently, with the mythical Adam or primal Man. This too is not referring to any human but the universal Son of God also found in prechristian literature, and again, subsequently suppressed by orthodoxy.

Resurrection per Paul

By spiritual insight: “according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, (Romans 1:4)​

By simile: “if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.” (Romans 6:5)​

By allegorizing scripture: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,” (1 cor 15:3). IOW, as allegorized from scripture..​

By allegorizing scripture: “For as by a [Primal] man came death, by a [Last] man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 cor 15:22)​

By allegorizing scripture: “But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” (1 cor 15:35)…If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (V. 15:44)​
By simile: “that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,” (Phillippians 3:10)​

Please note, no eyewitness account of a decomposing human climbing or teleporting out of an earthen tomb. The resurrection according to Paul is always by interpretation or simile or spiritual insight of a meaning found in scripture. The only time he mentions witnesses in 1 corinthians 15 is using the word for mental perception or spiritual insight of Christ in association with an abortion (15:8) as if the witnesses perceived Christ’s cosmic body expelled lifeless from heaven into matter as part of the cosmogenic processes, also found in early christian literature, and yet again, subsequently suppressed by orthodoxy.

Over and over, the meaning of resurrection by Paul has been suppressed by orthodoxy in preference for a literal, historical interpretation of the Gospel myths. We were all fooled but no longer. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Ng Hammadi are a paradigm shift in understanding what resurrection actually means. Resurrection begins with a moral consciousness rising in humanity from a lifeless universe (the “abortion”) and culminates in a new heaven and earth on or after the last “day” of Jesus. At the time of Paul’s writing one “day” remained.
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Everyone takes the “three days” literally as solar days but Paul is describing heavenly events, angelic movements on earth, the plan of God unfolding in the universe. It cannot be seen with the human eyes but perceived by the mind alone via wisdom, right reason, or spiritual insight.

@El Cid
Below is a reference for the meaning of resurrection from the Nag Hammadi. These are the writings of christians who were persecuted by orthodoxy. The point is that the original meaning of resurrection was suppressed by the less abstract thinkers. We now have the original meaning of resurrection. The resurrection begins with the knowledge of the son of man rising in humanity (in the form of a moral consciousness) and culminates on the “Last Day” of Jesus in the beginning of a new heaven and earth, the “bodily resurrection” of Christ. There is no flesh and bones, much less, matter in the resurrection. The new cosmic body will be made of extremely ordered light as it was in the beginning. Matter will return to its original form, ie., LIGHT or energy ruled by Wisdom, Reason, or the “spirit of Jesus” now rising in us. (1)

Some say, “On the last day we will certainly rise again [35] [in the] resurrection.” But they do not [know what] they are saying, for the last day [is when] those who are Christ’s…the earth, which is…. When the [time] was ripe, he destroyed their [archon] of [darkness]33…souls.......34 [He took] his stand….

[It is these people] Christ will bring to heaven,36 since they have [renounced] ignorance and advanced to knowledge. And those who have knowledge.......37 …the great…[the spiritual]38 resurrection…. [He has come to] know [the Son of Humanity], that is, [he has come to] know [himself. This] is the perfect life, [that] people come to know [themselves]39 through the All.40

Therefore, [do not] look for the carnal resurrection,41 [37] which [is] destruction. [Those who] go astray by [expecting] a [resurrection] that is empty [are not stripped] of the flesh.42 [They do] not [know] the power [of God], nor do they [understand the interpretation] of the scriptures, [owing to their] duplicity of mind.
(The Testimony of Truth, Nag Hammadi)​
————-​
1) “If then you have been RAISED with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.” (Col 3:1)…because that is where our true home is! Our inheritance.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
It's ok to be young, nothing wrong with it.

As you mature, your arguments will mature.
One day you'll actually say something relevant and interesting about the issue at hand, but I rather think it will be like the monkeys with the typewriters producing Shakespeare.
 

El Cid

Well-known member
Most all of those publications assume there is no Creator God. So of course they are going to assume that resurrection is impossible.
Nope, science assumes nothing about God one way or the other. Science only studies what it can study and resurrected dead people cannot be studied because it does not happen except in mythological stories.
You obviously dont know much about mainstream science. It assumes methodological naturalism. Do you know what that is?
El Cid said:
But If He exists, then it is quite possible.
Only in your imagination and in mythology do dead things reassemble their decomposing bodies. You might as well believe that a phoenix returns to the temple of ra every five hundred years to die and be reborn or that Osiris returned to life or that Dionysius reassembled his body because Gods can do the impossible and it is recorded in literature. Do you see that you are no different than those who once believed Egyptian or Greek mythology but you would never concede that these other named gods were resurrected from death? You want to think your story is real but everyone elses stories were made up. You want to think that you are special and your god is special but the fact is these are all myths with an underlying religious meaning. The religious meaning is what we are after not the supernatural Hollywood movie spectacular. What does it mean, is the question?
There is strong evidence the Christian God exists, there is little or no evidence those other gods exist. In addition, there is pretty strong evidence Christ literallly rose from the dead.
What does it mean when Paul writes, We have been raised up with Christ? (Col 3:1) Did Paul ever explicitly write that a dead human reassembled his decomposing corpse, remove the lid off his coffin, and exit a dirt grave? Nope.
Yes, Read I Corinthians 15:3-5. Paul quotes an ancient Christian creed and says that Jesus was buried and then raised. If he was not talking about a literal body why bother to mention burial?
The Gospel stories are myth embellishing spiritual concepts expounded by Paul in his epistles. You have been fooled into thinking the Gospel stories are historical events when actually they are mythological stories. Did the “spirit of Jesus”, aka, Holy Spirit and Lord, rise in humanity as a moral consciousness and raise us up from ignorance of God and sin to knowledge of God and virtuous living? YES! For some more than others. In order to drive that point home for less abstract thinkers a few authors came up with the Gospel myths. Unfortunately, less abstract thinkers persecuted, exiled, and imprisoned the abstract thinkers in church history. You received the less abstract thinkers version of events.
There is no evidence that the gospels are myths. They have much more character development and dont have overblown stories like the gnostic gospel of Thomas which is a myth like a giant cross that follows Christ out of the tomb.
El Cid said:
Paul was just stating that the mothers of Abrahams two mothers of his two sons could be allegorized showing the difference between the physical Jerusalem and spiritual Jerusalem. He is not saying that the two mothers and the events surrounding them never existed or occurred.
Nope. Paul allegorized mythological stories in Hebrew scripture, as did Philo, the Essenes, and gnostic Christians. Everyone allegorized scripture except for the Pharisees and Christian orthodoxy. Do you see the company that you are in? The orthodoxy who rejected Paul for allegorizing Hebrew myths also rejected gnostic Christians for allegorizing myths for their intended meaning. You have scales over your eyes and are unable to see with clear mental vision so you are harping about mythologic stories as if they actually happened. You are spinning your wheels and going no where. And the more time you waste defending myths the further you drift from their intended meaning because rather than defending truth you instead become (have made yourself) its enemy.
No, the gospels are too realistic to be allegories, you can tell by comparing them to the gnostic writings which are strongly allegorical and mythologized which is one of the reasons they were rejected by the early church as non-canonical. And there is no evidence Paul allegorized the story of Christ.
”But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted… Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.” (2 cor 3:14)
He is referring to the Jews because of their rejection of Christ, they dont see the relatively clear markers of the Old covenant pointing toward the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ.
 
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