A Tale of Two Synods

[VDMA]

Food for thought… The LCMS frustrates me, it’s time for the LCMS to jettison the Neo Evangelical “Lutheran” (LINO’s Lutheran in name only) churches, with “paise bands”, etc., who are shells of what Lutherans should be (same thing with WELS, ELS).

Confessional Lutherans need to do a better job cultivating confessional Lutheran theology, liturgy, hymnody, and identity. If other districts continue down the Texas District path many of those churches will cease to be Lutheran. Sure they will remain conservative but not conservative Lutherans.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live

The Gottesdienst Crowd: [Gottesblog] A Tale of Two Synods — Larry Beane

A Tale of Two Synods — Gottesdienst

When someone posted the above video of the Texas District that was shown at the Texas District Convention, I responded on social media in a tongue-in-cheek manner, saying that Lutherans would do well to have such polished productions as this obviously non-denominational presentation.

www.gottesdienst.org

—————

The Gottesdienst Crowd: TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy

TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy — The Gottesdienst Crowd — Overcast

overcast.fm

 

[BJ Bear]

Food for thought… The LCMS frustrates me, it’s time for the LCMS to jettison the Neo Evangelical “Lutheran” (LINO’s Lutheran in name only) churches, with “paise bands”, etc., who are shells of what Lutherans should be (same thing with WELS, ELS).

Confessional Lutherans need to do a better job cultivating confessional Lutheran theology, liturgy, hymnody, and identity. If other districts continue down the Texas District path many of those churches will cease to be Lutheran. Sure they will remain conservative but not conservative Lutherans.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live

The Gottesdienst Crowd: [Gottesblog] A Tale of Two Synods — Larry Beane

A Tale of Two Synods — Gottesdienst

When someone posted the above video of the Texas District that was shown at the Texas District Convention, I responded on social media in a tongue-in-cheek manner, saying that Lutherans would do well to have such polished productions as this obviously non-denominational presentation.

www.gottesdienst.org

—————

The Gottesdienst Crowd: TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy

TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy — The Gottesdienst Crowd — Overcast

overcast.fm

It was before my time so I've only heard and read about it but it seems to me that the LCMS is still suffering from what caused the split with the WELS.

I hope and pray for the best for the LCMS.

 

[VDMA]

It was before my time so I've only heard and read about it but it seems to me that the LCMS is still suffering from what caused the split with the WELS.

I hope and pray for the best for the LCMS.

The article nailed it that LCMS is really a divided Synod. The WELS is certainly not without there own problems. Much of the WELS are this kind of low church piety and dare I say mildly pietistic (at least the ones I’ve been visited) and err on the side of hyper unionism. They’re not anymore confessional than the conservative liturgical LCMS churches. But given the state of some LCMS churches and districts (some of the WELS churches that are in the same boat), fellowship is not possible at this time until some issues are dealt within the LCMS. It’s unfortunate because many LCMS churches would be in agreement or in close agreement with the WELS.

I really don’t care if a woman votes to chooses the color of the carpet in the preschool room. WELS would probably throw a fuss over that…I am not okay with any females teaching co-ed (it’s the responsibility of the pastor), lectors (male or female, again that is the responsibility of the pastor) or female altar guides (only males become pastors that’s why they need to be all male). On that point there are some issues with an LCMS with women’s suffrage that need to be fixed.

Sadly, there are LCMS churches I would refused to commune with or even step foot into their church. If I see a “praise band”, lectors, female altar guides (when they should be only males) or see any church growth nonsense, I won’t even step foot into the church.

Perhaps, some of the problematic churches are a remnant of some of the issues from 1961 (There’s been much improvement since then and as a whole we are moving in the right direction). There is some good news, the LCMS have formal talks with the WELS/ELS. Perhaps, those discussions can be fruitful in the future, if the LCMS is honest with the fact that we are a divided Synod. We have to be willing to address the issues instead of "kicking the can down the road" and pretend that we are not divided.

 

[Bonnie]

Food for thought… The LCMS frustrates me, it’s time for the LCMS to jettison the Neo Evangelical “Lutheran” (LINO’s Lutheran in name only) churches, with “paise bands”, etc., who are shells of what Lutherans should be (same thing with WELS, ELS).

Confessional Lutherans need to do a better job cultivating confessional Lutheran theology, liturgy, hymnody, and identity. If other districts continue down the Texas District path many of those churches will cease to be Lutheran. Sure they will remain conservative but not conservative Lutherans.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live

The Gottesdienst Crowd: [Gottesblog] A Tale of Two Synods — Larry Beane

A Tale of Two Synods — Gottesdienst

When someone posted the above video of the Texas District that was shown at the Texas District Convention, I responded on social media in a tongue-in-cheek manner, saying that Lutherans would do well to have such polished productions as this obviously non-denominational presentation.

www.gottesdienst.org

—————

The Gottesdienst Crowd: TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy

TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy — The Gottesdienst Crowd — Overcast

overcast.fm

We still sing the liturgy from the hymnal in our church. I have been to a couple of LCMS churches that have done a sort of blended modern/traditional service, with shortened liturgy and a mix of more modern songs with the traditional music from the hymnal. Modern music is okay, so long as it is Christ-focused and what He did for us on the cross, and why. What I cannot abide are happy-clappy songs so prevalent these days in evangelical churches.

 

[BJ Bear]

The article nailed it that LCMS is really a divided Synod. The WELS is certainly not without there own problems. Much of the WELS are this kind of low church piety and dare I say mildly pietistic (at least the ones I’ve been visited) and err on the side of hyper unionism. They’re not anymore confessional than the conservative liturgical LCMS churches. But given the state of some LCMS churches and districts (some of the WELS churches that are in the same boat), fellowship is not possible at this time until some issues are dealt within the LCMS. It’s unfortunate because many LCMS churches would be in agreement or in close agreement with the WELS.

I really don’t care if a woman votes to chooses the color of the carpet in the preschool room. WELS would probably throw a fuss over that…I am not okay with any females teaching co-ed (it’s the responsibility of the pastor), lectors (male or female, again that is the responsibility of the pastor) or female altar guides (only males become pastors that’s why they need to be all male). On that point there are some issues with an LCMS with women’s suffrage that need to be fixed.

Sadly, there are LCMS churches I would refused to commune with or even step foot into their church. If I see a “praise band”, lectors, female altar guides (when they should be only males) or see any church growth nonsense, I won’t even step foot into the church.

Perhaps, some of the problematic churches are a remnant of some of the issues from 1961 (There’s been much improvement since then and as a whole we are moving in the right direction). There is some good news, the LCMS have formal talks with the WELS/ELS. Perhaps, those discussions can be fruitful in the future, if the LCMS is honest with the fact that we are a divided Synod. We have to be willing to address the issues instead of "kicking the can down the road" and pretend that we are not divided.

You know the old joke about worship style, right? There is high and crazy, middle and hazy, and low and lazy.

 

[VDMA]

We still sing the liturgy from the hymnal in our church. I have been to a couple of LCMS churches that have done a sort of blended modern/traditional service, with shortened liturgy and a mix of more modern songs with the traditional music from the hymnal. Modern music is okay, so long as it is Christ-focused and what He did for us on the cross, and why. What I cannot abide are happy-clappy songs so prevalent these days in evangelical churches.

I’m going to go on a little rant here. Because this stuff really matters, so much so, it could mean the difference between remaining Lutheran or becoming a Confessional Lutheran wasteland. The Divine Service is not an Adiaphora!

I’ve been around a long enough to see how this plays out… it’s never for the better. Modern blended modern/traditional service is a death sentence to confessional Lutheranism. Not only does it divide by style, or divide by generation, it jettisons hundreds of years of liturgical practices that been developed and fine-tune over the centuries and passed down from generation to generation (2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught...). If we mess with the divine service (like some churches have) we’re gonna screw it up. All this modernism is connected to the pietistic church growth moment and we see how well that works out (emphasis on the sarcasm).

If we worships like evangelicals or some cheap knock off of American Evangelicals, that church will ceased to be a Lutheran. How we worship matters. The so-called modern service that sing theologly shallow music written by heterodox authors is not helpful. A praise band in front is nothing more than man centered worship, it certainly not christocentric worship as it is unfolded in the Divine Service (Mass).

What is wrong with that contemporary service? Second, consider the following service schedules:

Sunday morning service schedule in the early 1990s:

8:00 Traditional
9:45 Contemporary
11:00 Traditional

Service schedule in 2006:

8:00 Traditional
9:45 Contemporary
11:00 Contemporary

Service schedule in 2020:
8:00 Heritage Service (traditional)
9:30 Praise & Worship Service (contemporary)
11:00 nXt (adapted from “Next,” i.e., a special ser-vice for Generation “X”)

This is a schedule from the same church. Do you see what’s happening…do you see the problem? 🤷🏻‍♂️ I see a major problem that’s alarming! The worship does not line up with Lutheran theology. It’s a death sentence to confessional Lutheranism.

There is leeway with liturgical practices (there is absolutely zero room for “praise bands” jamming away in the front singing non-liturgical music, etc.). If a church worships like evangelicals and Baptist, they will cease to be Lutheran.

The liturgical downgrades (over the years) are extremely tragic. I have no doubt that Martin Luther would have some strong words about what’s happening. The externals visually catechize (e.g. making the sign of the cross, genuflecting, Georgian chants, etc.). If we truly believe it’s the true corporal blood and body of Christ, our liturgical practices and reverence for the sacred sacraments should reflect it.

We just need to do a better job of teaching good liturgical practices and the why behind it (e.g. why we make the sign of the cross, why we genuflect, why even incense🤭, why church architecture matters, why the historic one year lectionary is better, etc.) and how it fit into our confessions. We also need to be teaching why modernism/pietism is bad.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live.

——————

You can guarantee someone will make a fuss about the importance of standing for the flag, or insist that the American flag be in the nave (when is offers zero liturgical use) etc. But they won’t teach their kids good liturgical practices. It’s no big deal not to genuflect before the receiving the most sacred thing on the planet, the corporal body and body of Christ, etc. 🤷🏻‍♂️ We most certainly have some Christian freedom but is seem some use that freedom as a excuse not to do something (e.g. genuflect).

Here’s another question. Should we make a fuss over not wearing a uniform of the church? I have no idea why a Pastor wouldn’t want to wear the uniform of the church. Or do we want our Pastors to blend with their suit and ties or business casual just like everyone else in the world. I think it manners not to the point of a law, but to the point that it is important and it visibly sets apart. That’s the man who give absolution, that’s a man who preaches law in gospel and distributes God’s gifts. It just amazes me how we use our Christian freedom sometimes.

Oh, here is something that is like nails to a chalkboard, “that’s too Catholic”. Big Sigh, no…it’s confessional Lutheranism.

 

[VDMA]

You know the old joke about worship style, right? There is high and crazy, middle and hazy, and low and lazy.

It’s so much more than worship style. How we worship does matter. The Divine Service is not a Adiaphora. Lutheran worship should reflects our theology.

You can’t teach good liturgical practices divorced from the confessions. Externals are not mindless rituals. There are liberal churches that are “high church” that are absolute abominations (e.g. females larping as pastors). They divorce doctrine and scriptural truth from the ritual/liturgical practices, etc.

You have to teach the why behind it and how it relates to our confessions. While Georgian chanting is beautiful, there is actually a practical reason why it’s done (It’s been shown to be the best way to put scripture and prayers to memory). We genuflecting during the “glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Sprit”, to show reverence to the triune God, we the making a sign of the cross reminds us of our baptism, etc. These liturgical practices were refine over hundreds of years. If we start messing with it someone will screw up. Liturgical downgrades generally only lead one way…to pietism and to something that is vaguely Lutheran.

 

[VDMA]

Contemporary worship is nothing more than the theology of man. It is man centered worship not Christocentric worship.

Kids are not leaving the church because of proper liturgical reverence. They are leaving for over reasons (e.g. not having properly Catechesis). A “praise band” will only accelerate a churches decline in the long run. If you worship like funevangelicals or some cheap imitation knock off they will cease to be Lutheran.

Interestingly, I spoke with a WELS brother who gave me giving me the inside scoop. There's an increasing push in the WELS congregation to include a CoWo (Contemporary worship: non-traditional music, lack of liturgy, no vestments, etc.) service on Sunday evenings (because it's what the young people want!) 🤮 . The stuff is garbage and poison to all confessional Lutheran churches.

How about Morning Prayer or Saturday Vespers with private confession…to prepare for Sunday morning worship. Oh that’s not gonna bring the young kids into church. 🙄 We need accommodate them with gimmicks, fun, and music, nothing too early, because they may be sleeping in from having a late night binge on the Xbox.

I’m doing a lot of generalizations… I am encouraged each week at our church by seeing our young kids and young adults who thirst for word and sacrament. I am encouraged by the Altar boy who show reverence and desire to do their job well. No gimmicks, no praise bands, no dividing by worship style, or generations, etc.

 

[Bonnie]

I’m going to go on a little rant here. Because this stuff really matters, so much so, it could mean the difference between remaining Lutheran or becoming a Confessional Lutheran wasteland. The Divine Service is not an Adiaphora!

I’ve been around a long enough to see how this plays out… it’s never for the better. Modern blended modern/traditional service is a death sentence to confessional Lutheranism. Not only does it divide by style, or divide by generation, it jettisons hundreds of years of liturgical practices that been developed and fine-tune over the centuries and passed down from generation to generation (2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught...). If we mess with the divine service (like some churches have) we’re gonna screw it up. All this modernism is connected to the pietistic church growth moment and we see how well that works out (emphasis on the sarcasm).

If we worships like evangelicals or some cheap knock off of American Evangelicals, that church will ceased to be a Lutheran. How we worship matters. The so-called modern service that sing theologly shallow music written by heterodox authors is not helpful. A praise band in front is nothing more than man centered worship, it certainly not christocentric worship as it is unfolded in the Divine Service (Mass).

What is wrong with that contemporary service? Second, consider the following service schedules:

Sunday morning service schedule in the early 1990s:

8:00 Traditional
9:45 Contemporary
11:00 Traditional

Service schedule in 2006:

8:00 Traditional
9:45 Contemporary
11:00 Contemporary

Service schedule in 2020:
8:00 Heritage Service (traditional)
9:30 Praise & Worship Service (contemporary)
11:00 nXt (adapted from “Next,” i.e., a special ser-vice for Generation “X”)

This is a schedule from the same church. Do you see what’s happening…do you see the problem? 🤷🏻‍♂️ I see a major problem that’s alarming! The worship does not line up with Lutheran theology. It’s a death sentence to confessional Lutheranism.

There is leeway with liturgical practices (there is absolutely zero room for “praise bands” jamming away in the front singing non-liturgical music, etc.). If a church worships like evangelicals and Baptist, they will cease to be Lutheran.

The liturgical downgrades (over the years) are extremely tragic. I have no doubt that Martin Luther would have some strong words about what’s happening. The externals visually catechize (e.g. making the sign of the cross, genuflecting, Georgian chants, etc.). If we truly believe it’s the true corporal blood and body of Christ, our liturgical practices and reverence for the sacred sacraments should reflect it.

We just need to do a better job of teaching good liturgical practices and the why behind it (e.g. why we make the sign of the cross, why we genuflect, why even incense🤭, why church architecture matters, why the historic one year lectionary is better, etc.) and how it fit into our confessions. We also need to be teaching why modernism/pietism is bad.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live.

——————

You can guarantee someone will make a fuss about the importance of standing for the flag, or insist that the American flag be in the nave (when is offers zero liturgical use) etc. But they won’t teach their kids good liturgical practices. It’s no big deal not to genuflect before the receiving the most sacred thing on the planet, the corporal body and body of Christ, etc. 🤷🏻‍♂️ We most certainly have some Christian freedom but is seem some use that freedom as a excuse not to do something (e.g. genuflect).

Here’s another question. Should we make a fuss over not wearing a uniform of the church? I have no idea why a Pastor wouldn’t want to wear the uniform of the church. Or do we want our Pastors to blend with their suit and ties or business casual just like everyone else in the world. I think it manners not to the point of a law, but to the point that it is important and it visibly sets apart. That’s the man who give absolution, that’s a man who preaches law in gospel and distributes God’s gifts. It just amazes me how we use our Christian freedom sometimes.

Oh, here is something that is like nails to a chalkboard, “that’s too Catholic”. Big Sigh, no…it’s confessional Lutheranism.

You make some good points. But I have seen some more modern hymns in a couple of Lutheran churches with blended services that were theologically strong. My husband, who is a retired LCMS pastor has been with me, and he can pick out theologically weak songs in a nanosecond. He has taught me how to, also. But I still prefer the older hymns ( tho some in our hymnal are 20th century), since I am more familiar with them. But the 20th century ones are not really what I would classify as "contemporary" songs. But I do see your point--theological suicide.

I have put this on here before, but you may not have seen it.

 

[VDMA]

You make some good points. But I have seen some more modern hymns in a couple of Lutheran churches with blended services that were theologically strong. My husband, who is a retired LCMS pastor has been with me, and he can pick out theologically weak songs in a nanosecond. He has taught me how to, also. But I still prefer the older hymns ( tho some in our hymnal are 20th century), since I am more familiar with them. But the 20th century ones are not really what I would classify as "contemporary" songs. But I do see your point--theological suicide.

I have put this on here before, but you may not have seen it.

Well that video speaks truth. I’ve seen it before, nothing like Lutheran Satire to speak truth. Lutheran Satire are faithful saints who belong to the church militant. I believe the video was actually mocking a real Lutheran Church within the Texas District.

I don’t know how you can “blend a service” without compromising. We have the LSB (Lutheran Service book) for a reason.

We have four settings to choose from for Mass. They have a choice, Divine Service setting; one, two, three (preferred) or four.

They also have a wide range of hymns to choose from in our hymnal. They can choose between a three-year or the historic one year lectionary. This modernism garbage doesn’t create unity, but disunity. We literally have a liturgical heritage that predates Martin Luther, but we have some that want to go rogue, because they think they know better then our predecessors. It’s all for the children and young generation they say… It’s not possible to blend, it’s like mixing oil and water. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Unfortunately, there is a Fox in the hen house in many of these Lutheran churches.

We have a good districts in the LCMS the Wyoming districts doing good things, etc.

 

[Bonnie]

Well that video speaks truth. I’ve seen it before, nothing like Lutheran Satire to speak truth. Lutheran Satire are faithful saints who belong to the church militant. I believe the video was actually mocking a real Lutheran Church within the Texas District.

I don’t know how you can “blend a service” without compromising. We have the LSB (Lutheran Service book) for a reason.

We have four settings to choose from for Mass. They have a choice, Divine Service setting; one, two, three (preferred) or four.

They also have a wide range of hymns to choose from in our hymnal. They can choose between a three-year or the historic one year lectionary. This modernism garbage doesn’t create unity, but disunity. We literally have a liturgical heritage that predates Martin Luther, but we have some that want to go rogue, because they think they know better then our predecessors. It’s all for the children and young generation they say… It’s not possible to blend, it’s like mixing oil and water. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Unfortunately, there is a Fox in the hen house in many of these Lutheran churches.

We have a good districts in the LCMS the Wyoming districts doing good things, etc.

We use the LSB as well. My favorite order of service is the one borrowed from the old 1941 hymnal. I grew up with that one. I don't remember which one that is offhand.

 

[BJ Bear]

We use the LSB as well. My favorite order of service is the one borrowed from the old 1941 hymnal. I grew up with that one. I don't remember which one that is offhand.

I was catechized through the use of that old hymnal and an even older one in the churches I visited. I was disappointed when the WELS introduced a new hymnal.

 

[VDMA]

I was catechized through the use of that old hymnal and an even older one in the churches I visited. I was disappointed when the WELS introduced a new hymnal.

I haven’t seen the new WELS hymnal yet.

You brought up a good point. Hymnody catechize through music. The Bible professes, the Catechism confesses and the hymnal expresses.

 

[VDMA]

We use the LSB as well. My favorite order of service is the one borrowed from the old 1941 hymnal. I grew up with that one. I don't remember which one that is offhand.

A must watch for all LCMS members.

If Not Now, When? (The ACELC - Part 1 of 2)

If Not Now, When? (The ACELC - Part 2 of 2)

https://acelc.net/

 

[Bonnie]

I was catechized through the use of that old hymnal and an even older one in the churches I visited. I was disappointed when the WELS introduced a new hymnal.

Well the 1941 hymnal was used in our church for decades, until the late 70's I seem to recall. A few alternate hymnbooks came out--the green one and the red one--until our synod settled on the LW. A lot of folks in our church didn't like it that much--it seemed to try to be too gender neutral in some of the hymns, and do away with all of the "thees' and "thous" in it. Which never bothered me, even as a little kid. Then in 2006 our present hymnal came out and it is an improvement over the LW, if you ask me. I like the orders of worship better, too.

 

[VDMA]

I was catechized through the use of that old hymnal and an even older one in the churches I visited. I was disappointed when the WELS introduced a new hymnal.

I don’t know about the new WELS hymnal.
I’m okay with sparingly adding a couple “new modern” hymns (I’d rather see some of them in a supplemental hymnal). It’s like they’re adding “new hymns” that are written by Sacramentarians for the sake of adding something “new”. Generally that’s not a good idea. There’s some good music written within the last 100 years that are actually pretty good. Since, Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church has produced some liturgical musical gems (e.g. The Lord’s Supper Hymn, “Sent Forth by God’s Blessing”). I generally wouldn’t look to the modern Sacramentarians for my musical choices. You can guarantee that music will not catechize on the sacraments. How much of this new music written by Sacramentarians, catechesis on the blessings of Holy baptism, Holy communion, confession and Holy absolution? ZERO (emphasis on zero).

Why jettison Philipp Nicolai, Johann Heerman and Paul Gerhardt for this these “new Hymns”! How about the Advent “Lo! He Comes with Clouds Descending" by Charles Wesley or the Hymn, “Christ Is the World’s Redeemer”, etc. It almost appears some of these new hymnal choices are looking to appease “contemporary“ worship. I could be wrong with my assessment, I can’t really assess the hymnal without actually physically having one. But from what little I can see, I won’t be fan of the new WELS hymnal. 😬

 

[Josiah]

I’m going to go on a little rant here.

.... and rants are okay.


But I recall (perhaps wrongly) that Luther himself felt very free to entirely change the worship styles of his day.. and he himself developed SEVERAL orders of service, some of which had no real liturgy at all (but just hymns, Bible readings, sermon and Sacrament). He himself used popular tunes of his day (even beer drinking songs) and just changed the lyrics. In the Reformation, Lutherans tended to continue the contemporary Catholic style but variously modified (there's never been one Lutheran service; and unlike Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans never one officially approved for all in that faith community).


And while some Lutherans LOVE to call themselves "Confessional" and insist that means they must use one of the latest LCMS liturgies (from 2006). But as I recall (and this is from memory) the Confessions actually state that it is not necessary that Lutherans all worship the same. SO the Confessional position is that each congregation may worship in its own way. If one is "Confessional" they would be against all worshipping the same. Indeed, even the 2006 LCMS hymnal offers FIVE different services; there is no Divine Service in Lutheranism, there are FIVE of them in the 2006 CPH Hymnal... and not one of them is the same as ones in previous CPH hymnals or in the hymnals of any of the over 300 other Lutheran synods.

This comes from a paper, "Lutheran Confessions and Lutheran Worship." "It can now be seen why ceremonies are considered adiaphora. If their use or observance is required, they become a new law to burden consciences. Such requirements are Judaizing and as contrary to the Gospel as the attempts to force circumcision upon the gentiles in Galatia.Circumcision at least had the command of God through Moses! None of the liturgies or othertraditions had such a command. That is why Melancthon can refer to them as "useless"34 and"trifles."3531Ap XV, 25. Tappert, 218-219.32Ap XXVIII, 7. Tappert, 282.33Ap XV, 29. Tappert, 219.34See Apology XXVIII, 7 above.35"It is terrible to read and hear such pharisaical and even Mohammedan expressions in the church, findingperfection of the Gospel and of the Kingdom of Christ, which is eternal life," Ap VII, 27. Tappert, 274.8

To recap, the doctrine of worship and the doctrine of justification are very closely related in the Lutheran confessions, with the later being plainly drawn from the former. None of the following opinions can be maintained without sacrificing the doctrine of justification: 1. That there are rites, ceremonies, or other traditions of men which must be observed. 2. That the purpose of worship is to make propitiation for sins. 3. That these traditions merit the forgiveness of sins or other grace from God. 4. That the mere performance of these ceremonies is pleasing to God. .Where these errors are present there is no true worship."


One of my teachers commented that "most think historic Lutheran worship is WHATEVER they did in the church they grew up in." And "people tend to think that Lutheran worship is whatever THEIR Lutheran church does." Both are simply untrue.



PERSONALLY, my OWN desire is that hymns and liturgical parts are theologically correct. Frankly, I don't care if the tune is from the 16th century or 21st century, whether it is Welsh or German or Italian or American. I don't think God cares if the accompaniment is on a piano, organ, guitar or no accompaniment at all. I don't think it matters if the the music is fast or slow.

PERSONALLY, I think it's GOOD (but not required) that the Mass includes confession/absolution, readings from the lectionary, the Nicene Creed, a sermon, prayers (including the Lord;s Prayer) and the Eucharist. To ME, those "parts" are good to be present but I would NOT argue that the Lutheran Confessions or sound theology demands such or it's heretical or disallowed worship. The few "contemporary" services I've seen in Lutheran Services included all these (except maybe deleting the Eucharist and thus changing to the Apostle's Creed). I look to the THEOLOGY of the service, not the style. And I embrace the Confessions that worship need not be the same everywhere.

service that sing theologly shallow music written by heterodox authors is not helpful.

I agree. But then that equally applies to "traditional" service too. You are probably aware of how a LOT of "traditional" hymns (including some in the 2006 LCMS hymnal) are controversial for their theology.





.

 

[Bonnie]

.... and rants are okay.


But I recall (perhaps wrongly) that Luther himself felt very free to entirely change the worship styles of his day.. and he himself developed SEVERAL orders of service, some of which had no real liturgy at all (but just hymns, Bible readings, sermon and Sacrament). He himself used popular tunes of his day (even beer drinking songs) and just changed the lyrics. In the Reformation, Lutherans tended to continue the contemporary Catholic style but variously modified (there's never been one Lutheran service; and unlike Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans never one officially approved for all in that faith community).


And while some Lutherans LOVE to call themselves "Confessional" and insist that means they must use one of the latest LCMS liturgies (from 2006). But as I recall (and this is from memory) the Confessions actually state that it is not necessary that Lutherans all worship the same. SO the Confessional position is that each congregation may worship in its own way. If one is "Confessional" they would be against all worshipping the same. Indeed, even the 2006 LCMS hymnal offers FIVE different services; there is no Divine Service in Lutheranism, there are FIVE of them in the 2006 CPH Hymnal... and not one of them is the same as ones in previous CPH hymnals or in the hymnals of any of the over 300 other Lutheran synods.

This comes from a paper, "Lutheran Confessions and Lutheran Worship." "It can now be seen why ceremonies are considered adiaphora. If their use or observance is required, they become a new law to burden consciences. Such requirements are Judaizing and as contrary to the Gospel as the attempts to force circumcision upon the gentiles in Galatia.Circumcision at least had the command of God through Moses! None of the liturgies or othertraditions had such a command. That is why Melancthon can refer to them as "useless"34 and"trifles."3531Ap XV, 25. Tappert, 218-219.32Ap XXVIII, 7. Tappert, 282.33Ap XV, 29. Tappert, 219.34See Apology XXVIII, 7 above.35"It is terrible to read and hear such pharisaical and even Mohammedan expressions in the church, findingperfection of the Gospel and of the Kingdom of Christ, which is eternal life," Ap VII, 27. Tappert, 274.8

To recap, the doctrine of worship and the doctrine of justification are very closely related in the Lutheran confessions, with the later being plainly drawn from the former. None of the following opinions can be maintained without sacrificing the doctrine of justification: 1. That there are rites, ceremonies, or other traditions of men which must be observed. 2. That the purpose of worship is to make propitiation for sins. 3. That these traditions merit the forgiveness of sins or other grace from God. 4. That the mere performance of these ceremonies is pleasing to God. .Where these errors are present there is no true worship."


One of my teachers commented that "most think historic Lutheran worship is WHATEVER they did in the church they grew up in." And "people tend to think that Lutheran worship is whatever THEIR Lutheran church does." Both are simply untrue.



PERSONALLY, my OWN desire is that hymns and liturgical parts are theologically correct. Frankly, I don't care if the tune is from the 16th century or 21st century, whether it is Welsh or German or Italian or American. I don't think God cares if the accompaniment is on a piano, organ, guitar or no accompaniment at all. I don't think it matters if the the music is fast or slow.

PERSONALLY, I think it's GOOD (but not required) that the Mass includes confession/absolution, readings from the lectionary, the Nicene Creed, a sermon, prayers (including the Lord;s Prayer) and the Eucharist. To ME, those "parts" are good to be present but I would NOT argue that the Lutheran Confessions or sound theology demands such or it's heretical or disallowed worship. The few "contemporary" services I've seen in Lutheran Services included all these (except maybe deleting the Eucharist and thus changing to the Apostle's Creed). I look to the THEOLOGY of the service, not the style. And I embrace the Confessions that worship need not be the same everywhere.






I agree. But then that equally applies to "traditional" service too. You are probably aware of how a LOT of "traditional" hymns (including some in the 2006 LCMS hymnal) are controversial for their theology.





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Actually one of the five settings in the 2006 hymnal is partially based upon the old 1941 hymnal liturgy. I grew up with that one. So, that is probably why it is my favorite of the 5. But really, I like them all.

 

[VDMA]

.... and rants are okay.

But I recall (perhaps wrongly) that Luther himself felt very free to entirely change the worship styles of his day.. and he himself developed SEVERAL orders of service, some of which had no real liturgy at all (but just hymns, Bible readings, sermon and Sacrament).

Our confessions can’t be used in a way that uses our Christian freedom to undermine our own confessions! As I stated above there is leeway and some Christian freedom…to a point. Our liturgical worship practices have been refine over hundred of years. That doesn’t mean that we can’t ever make any changes. Everything in the liturgy teacher something.

If I go on a trip, I can’t just walk into any Lutheran Church and expect consistency if I just go to any Lutheran Church. Guess who we have to thank for that…the modernist… pietistic churches, who thought it would be in the best interest at the church to divide by generation and style. It’s nothing more than pietistic church growth nonsense.

We do not have the freedom to worship like a Fungelicals. Our worship practices outflow from our confessions on what we; teach, believe and confess. We don’t give lip service to the Confessions then jam out at the evangelicals. Evangelicals/Baptist worship the way they do, precisely because it is an outflowing of their theology. Sacramental churches worship differently because of our views on a sacraments. In worship you’re being catechized by your worship style whether you realize it or not..

Do you know whats missing from a lot these so-called Lutheran churches who give lip service to our confessions? The absolution is missing in many of these so-called Lutheran services…You know what else is missing from any of the churches? Closed Communion. Do you not what else many of these Churches have a issue with…calling the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary the Mother of God… do you know what else is missing from these churches….celebration of the Feast Days….are these coincidence? 🤷🏻‍♂️ Shocker: I think not. They’re being categorized wrongly.

Perhaps, you should listen to this podcast.

The Gottesdienst Crowd: TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy

TGC 117 — Luther’s Liturgical Legacy — The Gottesdienst Crowd — Overcast

overcast.fm

Our Savior “Lutheran church” (LCMS) Non-confessional Worship performs Hosanna by Hillsong

Redeemer Lutheran in Church (LCMS) Confessional Lutherans

Our confessions reflect what we teach believe in confess about the Bible in Sacraments.

 

[Nic]

Fungelicals...😅🤣😂😁