A thread addressed to Arminians only—when is it time to move on...

Dizerner

Well-known member
We make our points, we pray, we stand for the truth, and it's all a person can do. The rest is necessarily left to the eternal judgment.

I will witness to a lost person as many times as they will listen to me witness, but there comes a point their rejection is finalized.

I think many of us can just be wasting our time arguing the same points to people who have determined to reject them. Perhaps continually sowing into bad ground is irresponsible and a waste of our resources. After all, in Jesus' parable the tree was only dug around three times. Tell me some trees haven't been dug around more than three times...

Perhaps other Arminians enjoy having their repeated points ignored, or they are just endlessly tenacious. I'm not trying to necessarily criticize you for that, in a way I deeply admire that level of tenacity and commitment to reach someone you consider needing help. But I do wonder if it is the most profitable course of action... I'm doubting it.

Peace to those in Christ.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Why do you think Calvinists are "lost"?
We accept the Biblical gospel.

I didn't say I think Calvinists are "lost."

That should be obvious.

I compared someone rejecting or receiving a truth to the same principle that works in lost people.


I just knew the first person to respond to an "Arminians only" thread would be a Calvinist.
 

civic

Well-known member
We make our points, we pray, we stand for the truth, and it's all a person can do. The rest is necessarily left to the eternal judgment.
BTW- I would never ever say an Arminian is going to face Judgment for what they believe. We believe the same essentials of Christianity.

In Essentials unity, in non essentials liberty and in all things charity.

Why don't you try that concept instead on CONDEMNATION/ JUDGEMENT ?
 

civic

Well-known member
We make our points, we pray, we stand for the truth, and it's all a person can do. The rest is necessarily left to the eternal judgment.

I will witness to a lost person as many times as they will listen to me witness, but there comes a point their rejection is finalized.

I think many of us can just be wasting our time arguing the same points to people who have determined to reject them. Perhaps continually sowing into bad ground is irresponsible and a waste of our resources. After all, in Jesus' parable the tree was only dug around three times. Tell me some trees haven't been dug around more than three times...

Perhaps other Arminians enjoy having their repeated points ignored, or they are just endlessly tenacious. I'm not trying to necessarily criticize you for that, in a way I deeply admire that level of tenacity and commitment to reach someone you consider needing help. But I do wonder if it is the most profitable course of action... I'm doubting it.

Peace to those in Christ.
Now if you are talking about heterodox, cults and those types of people then I can agree. But between A/C there is no Judgment involved as we are brothers and sisters in Christ- we are on the same team.

Do you agree we are on the same team ?

If not why not ?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
We make our points, we pray, we stand for the truth, and it's all a person can do. The rest is necessarily left to the eternal judgment.

I will witness to a lost person as many times as they will listen to me witness, but there comes a point their rejection is finalized.

I think many of us can just be wasting our time arguing the same points to people who have determined to reject them. Perhaps continually sowing into bad ground is irresponsible and a waste of our resources. After all, in Jesus' parable the tree was only dug around three times. Tell me some trees haven't been dug around more than three times...

Perhaps other Arminians enjoy having their repeated points ignored, or they are just endlessly tenacious. I'm not trying to necessarily criticize you for that, in a way I deeply admire that level of tenacity and commitment to reach someone you consider needing help. But I do wonder if it is the most profitable course of action... I'm doubting it.

Peace to those in Christ.
Apparently I am the first Arminian to respond, but I hope not the last.

I think that frustration arises for a couple of reasons, but the first has to do with the reason or motivation for one’s posting and participation in the forums or any particular discussion. I have stated many times in various discussions in my seven years at CARM that the reason I came was to compare my thinking with those whom I knew held a very different viewpoint soteriologically. I wanted, and still do want to improve my own thought processes and to learn from hand to hand combat. I think I have done both.

One thing I wasn’t necessarily or primarily seeking to do was change someone else’s mind or thinking. The only mind that I can change is my own! If you are arguing to convince somebody to accept your position from their current position, then you are bound to live in frustration.

The other frame of reference for frustration is the stylistic component and personalities of our counterpart posters. It appears that too many, on all sides of the argument, are not, for example, motivated by the same frame of mind that I have, and either think their existence is based on proving everyone else wrong, or that just like to argue for the sake of arguing. These do not seem to want to learn or strengthen themselves, for they have already been to the third heaven, and are convinced of their own invincibility and perpetual correctness! For these, scripture admonishes living in peace in as far as in it possible and in your control; when push comes to shove, however, @Matt Slick has provided a way of escape, otherwise known as the “ignore” button!

I can only speak for myself, my brother, but I am finally learning that there are those of differing opinions that have the same mind and heart for being here, and I have learned to interact with them and leave the others to their own manners.

I ignore those with whom I have not been able to interact peacefully or those whose presentation smacks of hubris and an unwillingness to discuss respectfully even while disagreeing vehemently!

Keeping my own ducks in a row, and seeking discussions with those of a common disposition has allowed me to maintain my frustrations much better in recent years. And I hope this allows me the chance to continue in my learning and better my own thinking!

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
By my count, at best there are only two Arminians here; the Thread could have been titled 'Hey Doug, what do you think about this?'. As time has gone by, I think we've established that the rest are only Wolves in Arminian Clothing. At times, y'all side with the Wolves because they're anti Calvinists; but imagine if they were in your Church instead of here? Y'all have gotten better at not automatically patting them on the back...
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Apparently I am the first Arminian to respond, but I hope not the last.

I think that frustration arises for a couple of reasons, but the first has to do with the reason or motivation for one’s posting and participation in the forums or any particular discussion. I have stated many times in various discussions in my seven years at CARM that the reason I came was to compare my thinking with those whom I knew held a very different viewpoint soteriologically. I wanted, and still do want to improve my own thought processes and to learn from hand to hand combat. I think I have done both.

One thing I wasn’t necessarily or primarily seeking to do was change someone else’s mind or thinking. The only mind that I can change is my own! If you are arguing to convince somebody to accept your position from their current position, then you are bound to live in frustration.

The other frame of reference for frustration is the stylistic component and personalities of our counterpart posters. It appears that too many, on all sides of the argument, are not, for example, motivated by the same frame of mind that I have, and either think their existence is based on proving everyone else wrong, or that just like to argue for the sake of arguing. These do not seem to want to learn or strengthen themselves, for they have already been to the third heaven, and are convinced of their own invincibility and perpetual correctness! For these, scripture admonishes living in peace in as far as in it possible and in your control; when push comes to shove, however, @Matt Slick has provided a way of escape, otherwise known as the “ignore” button!

I can only speak for myself, my brother, but I am finally learning that there are those of differing opinions that have the same mind and heart for being here, and I have learned to interact with them and leave the others to their own manners.

I ignore those with whom I have not been able to interact peacefully or those whose presentation smacks of hubris and an unwillingness to discuss respectfully even while disagreeing vehemently!

Keeping my own ducks in a row, and seeking discussions with those of a common disposition has allowed me to maintain my frustrations much better in recent years. And I hope this allows me the chance to continue in my learning and better my own thinking!

Doug
Well said Doug. God bless
 

civic

Well-known member
By my count, at best there are only two Arminians here; the Thread could have been titled 'Hey Doug, what do you think about this?'. As time has gone by, I think we've established that the rest are only Wolves in Arminian Clothing. At times, y'all side with the Wolves because they're anti Calvinists; but imagine if they were in your Church instead of here? Y'all have gotten better at not automatically patting them on the back...
Agreed @travelah still stops by once in a while but knowing him it gets old with the same old stuff. I know he would be behind us 100% with all the heterodox people these days. I remember in the Resurrection thread on the old forum he was just as passionate as I was if not more so confronting the false teachers on the Resurrection body and those who denied Jesus still has a physical flesh and bone human glorified immortal, incorruptible body now in heaven. There were a few other Arminians as well who took the same stance we do on the Resurrection and questioning their salvation. Actually we went on record then as we do not they cannot be saved. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

hope this helps !!!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I love how this poster presumes to speak for the motivations of others:

It appears that too many, on all sides of the argument, are not, for example, motivated by the same frame of mind that I have, and either think their existence is based on proving everyone else wrong, or that just like to argue for the sake of arguing. These do not seem to want to learn or strengthen themselves, for they have already been to the third heaven, and are convinced of their own invincibility and perpetual correctness!

And then denies presuming to speak for others:

I can only speak for myself, my brother, but I am finally learning that there are those of differing opinions that have the same mind and heart for being here, and I have learned to interact with them and leave the others to their own manners.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Perhaps we need a refresher in Christian morality:

When someone requests:

A thread addressed to Arminians only​


This is not an invitation to bring the pet peeves and personal insults of the opposition.


But to actually address the OP, I think one reason I struggle to let go is because I feel like it's unloving to leave people in the bondage of a nasty and erroneous attitude towards God and man.

Perhaps sometimes it is love to leave people to their own choices, and it's consequences—like a parent who simply stops enabling—because they had plenty of chances to see their sin.

Peace in Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Perhaps we need a refresher in Christian morality:

Perhaps we need a refresher in Christian Lordship.
Christians have one Lord.
And it's not you.

When someone requests:

A thread addressed to Arminians only​

This is not an invitation to bring the pet peeves and personal insults of the opposition.

I don't believe CARM allows you to limit where participants can post.

But to actually address the OP, I think one reason I struggle to let go is because I feel like it's unloving to leave people in the bondage of a nasty and erroneous attitude towards God and man.

1) If it's "bondage", then why do you think you have the power to break the "bond"?

2) If you believe in "free will", then why don't you respect our "free will" to believe as we wish?

3) We don't believe it's "a nasty and erroneous attitude towards God and man"

Perhaps sometimes it is love to leave people to their own choices, and it's consequences—

And since you agree that Calvinists are saved, then why not direct your efforts towards those who are not?

like a parent who simply stops enabling—because they had plenty of chances to see their sin.

It's NOT a "sin" to simply believe the Bible.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Perhaps we need a refresher in Christian morality:

When someone requests:

A thread addressed to Arminians only​


This is not an invitation to bring the pet peeves and personal insults of the opposition.


But to actually address the OP, I think one reason I struggle to let go is because I feel like it's unloving to leave people in the bondage of a nasty and erroneous attitude towards God and man.

Perhaps sometimes it is love to leave people to their own choices, and it's consequences—like a parent who simply stops enabling—because they had plenty of chances to see their sin.

Peace in Christ.
Dizerner,
I responded to you, and yet the only people that have responded to me, an Arminian that you requested a response from, to which the OP was addressed, have been the Calvinists--and these all positive in nature.

Doug
 

civic

Well-known member
Dizerner,
I responded to you, and yet the only people that have responded to me, an Arminian that you requested a response from, to which the OP was addressed, have been the Calvinists--and these all positive in nature.

Doug
Amen
 

civic

Well-known member
Why do you think Calvinists are "lost"?
We accept the Biblical gospel.
Yes what a JOKE and MOCKERY with such disdain for the reformed. What he doesn't get is the father of his religion Arminius was Reformed and held to several catechism's as Calvinists hold such as his profession of agreement with the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism as an ordained Dutch Reformed minister. @Dizerner doesn't know his roots to well.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Just a post for reference to certain posters here:

 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Dizerner,
I responded to you, and yet the only people that have responded to me, an Arminian that you requested a response from, to which the OP was addressed, have been the Calvinists--and these all positive in nature.

Doug

There is no moral obligation to respond to every post in a thread, Doug.

There IS a moral obligation to respond to a reasonable request in an original post.

Perhaps you could see your point is completely unfair.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
And for the last time, I would request people to stop MISREPRESENTING and ACCUSING me of saying Calvinists are unsaved.

A comparison is not a direct equation, and never has been.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And for the last time, I would request people to stop MISREPRESENTING and ACCUSING me of saying Calvinists are unsaved.

A comparison is not a direct equation, and never has been.

Well, let's see....
You start a thread trying to exclude Calvinists, and then talk about "witnessing to a lost person".

IMO, it's not an unreasonable association to make.
 
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