CrowCross
Super Member
What do you do? You die for them on a cross.
A variation of Euthyphro's dilemma
- Thread starter shnarkle
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Whatsisface
Well-known member
And here we are back to square one. Give me good evidence that you're right and I'll believe. If you don't, then why do you believe?
Of course, now the discussion might turn to what is good evidence.
CrowCross
Super Member
I believe because I was given the gift of faith.
As time went on I learned about Isaiah 53 and other similiar verses.
The complexity and sophistication of the way a cell works and is derived from DNA greatly increased my faith...as well as flood geology and many other things....such as answered prayer.
Forgive them.
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Ok, thanks for the open answer, but I don't know what you mean by this.
As I said, this comes down to whether or not the above can be said to be good evidence.
We've talked about Isaiah before, so I won't pursue it here and now.
I don't know enough about cells to argue the point, but many biologists who are experts would disagree with your conclusion.
I think with flood geology I wonder if you are reading the wrong literature. None of the experts in the field, except maybe a very small minority, think there is any evidence of a worldwide flood. I'm going to guess you're reading from the minority side only.
With answered prayer, the answer is always something that could have happened anyway, It's never something that we know can't happen naturally. The classic example is a lost limb growing back, there is no known example of this happening. I think there must be people who have prayed for war to end, but it doesn't. Same with disease. Did you know that every year there are more people injured on the journey to Lourdes than are cured by any prayed for supposed miracle?
CrowCross
Super Member
My answer was the gift of faith....then that faith was strengthened by prophecy, science and answered prayer.
You didn't like the answer....so, what would you consider as an answer that would help you out?
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Is the gift of faith deciding to believe in the first place, before anything else.?
Ok. As I said about prayer, something that we know isn't going to happen naturally would really get my attention. If all disease stopped overnight, something that would really count for something in this world but we know it won't happen naturally, would shake my beliefs.
Odd choice. Forgiveness and mercy are free. Grace is a gift. Why such drama, passion and terror? Such a big to-do.
Please read what I actually posted. I would also recommend reading it a few times so that might fully comprehend what I actually posted. I'm pointing out that God may have created perfect maintenance free beings. Just because you're not, it doesn't then follow that there are none.
Again, I'm not sure where you're going with this, or why. Perhaps if you focused on making a point rather than posting demands of others, the discussion might progress somewhere.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Why aren't all beings maintenance-free, if he can make them?
One would presume that God is maintenance free as well, no?
We're assuming that the process of development and decay isn't maintenance free, but I'm not so sure that's the case at all. If I look at nature, I see a maintenance free world. No outside influence need be introduced to maintain it. What I see is people creating problems where there are none. We create scarcity. We create imbalances in the environment. I can see why there's this movement to get rid of people because so many people are making a mess of the environment. We're creating this need for maintenance when this need never existed in the first place.
Your assumptions are probably along the same lines. In other words, you assume that just because a body decays or decomposes, this is inferior to physical bodies which will never decay. We assume that because we employ these massive agricultural projects that we're the consumers, but one could just as easily posit that the organic life that live off of our decomposing corpses are the real consumers.
There's a fine line between ripe and rotten, and those who don't know where that line is could inadvertently get drunk. Perhaps this is why some flowers glow so brightly.
4thrite
Member
Just as you asked me to get the nuance of your position, perhaps you could accord me the same: just like any loving parent would, God chose a course of action that means a period of suffering for the long term good of the human family - that is what I believe. I also believe that God is all-knowing and chose the best way for all of us.
I believe that God created us with thinking ability; the ability to create thoughts, to consider them and to choose to act on them or not and this means that he created us with the ability to think and do things that are harmful. I also believe that we are responsible for what we think and do.
So God didn't create thoughts of hatred and violence, humans did. God didn't put those thoughts into action, humans did. God didn't create weapons, humans did. Every aspect of the world of men, including its diseases, was created by men at some point in our history.
So you would have me think: cruelty exists, therefore God does not? The cruel person says: I exist therefore your God does not. And yet God does exist as does the cruel person and so the thinking is in error.
Our existence and life is so heavily predicated on cause and effect, it is hard to imagine what you mean by the above. If people set things up so that their drinking water becomes contaminated with human waste, for example, typhoid fever is the result, is that result unnecessary?
john
4thrite
Member
That was one option but they weren't repentant; Eve blamed the serpent for her actions and Adam blamed God because God gave him the woman who got him to eat.
john
Why would you believe this? More specifically, why would the course God chose necessarily result in long term suffering? Isn't the gospel message about the necessity for Christ to suffer instead of us?
You may very well believe that God chose the best way for all of us, but you certainly can't deduce that from omniscience because omniscience doesn't allow for the possibility of being known.
I think what they actually say is: "There is no god to stop me" whereas those who do believe in god will claim that they are burning these witches at the stake because it's god's will.
This is the fallacy of Begging the Question.
Adam actually blames both God and Eve. He says that it was the woman God gave him. The story is tragic, yet it's also quite comical. I've come to the conclusion that it was originally meant to be a comedy, but the post modern world we live in has so completely dulled the senses that no one gets it anymore.
They were like children without knowledge and they were afraid, so forgive that too, and teach with love. Or is there a now a limit to what God can forgive? I haven't heard. Is that a new reformist tenet... the unforgivable sin, the reformable sinner?
I'm beginning to think, given this conversation, that Christianity is the least Christian religion in existence.
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4thrite
Member
It did not necessarily have to result in long-term suffering; people could have made other choices.
john
4thrite
Member
They had knowledge not to eat of the tree.
Neither one of them said they were sorry or showed any remorse.
There has always been a limit to what will be forgiven.
I think that maybe you have thought that long before this conversation.
john
You worship a petty and small hearted God.