Aaron32-ism: A Perspective of Mormonism

[brotherofJared]

God says marriage ends at death.

Nope. That's your idea, not God's. He never said anything like that.

There's no need for your "solution".

Newsflash: Mormonism is FALSE.

Newsflash: your opinion is irrelevant.

So Mormonism teaches that EVERYONE gets EVERYTHING they want, as long as they "ask"?

modern Christians teach that no one gets anything they want even if they ask?

The point is, that if one is going to continue having children in heaven, they have to be married. Whether you think they will be married or not has no bearing on the situation. That's just running away from the question. I believe you know the answer, but deflection is the only option you have available so go ahead and run away.

Yes, I believe God.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

But I believe you don't understand what He's saying.

I don't believe you understand what He's saying.

 

[Theo1689]

Theo1689 said:
God says marriage ends at death.

Nope. That's your idea, not God's. He never said anything like that.

I've quoted you the passages MANY times.
You just delete them from my posts, and pretend they don't exist.

Here they are again:

Rom. 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom. 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

1Cor. 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

 

[brotherofJared]

I've quoted you the passages MANY times.
You just delete them from my posts, and pretend they don't exist.

Because they are irrelevant.

You said God said that Marriage ends and death.

None of these are words that God said.

And none of these say that Marriage ends at death. They say that the woman is free to marry, period. That has always been the case. It is the very basis the brought up the question about marriage that God did answer.

Why would there even be a question about whether or not a woman who marries after her husband is dead, is she an adulteress? Why would that be a question if it wasn't understood that she was still married to the deceased husband?

and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Well, for sure you don't know.

 

[Magdalena]

Because they are irrelevant.

You said God said that Marriage ends and death.

None of these are words that God said.

And none of these say that Marriage ends at death. They say that the woman is free to marry, period. That has always been the case. It is the very basis the brought up the question about marriage that God did answer.

Why would there even be a question about whether or not a woman who marries after her husband is dead, is she an adulteress? Why would that be a question if it wasn't understood that she was still married to the deceased husband?

Well, for sure you don't know.

It was because of the customs of that day. Christ straightened them out.

 

[Aaron32]

Do you think you should hide the truth about mormonism because it might give people a different impression of the church than you want them to have?

I think this question says more about you than sincerely wanting to know my intent.
If I was trying to hide the truth about mormonism why would I give the answer I did? You'd think I'd be in denial of all the things I said, not embrace them. I'm just giving my reasoning as to why I believe. People are going to think what they want - that's not really my concern.

 

[Aaron32]

Luke 7:

44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47 Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Yep. I believe in being saved by faith alone.

 

[Aaron32]

Do we dissolve the first marriage? What will that do to Mary? She's dead and has no chance of marriage, except maybe in the Millennium.

Seems neither will be living on earth during the millennium if both died ​

Dissolve the first marriage? What are you referring to?

 

[Theo1689]

Do you think you should hide the truth about mormonism because it might give people a different impression of the church than you want them to have?

I think this question says more about you than sincerely wanting to know my intent.
If I was trying to hide the truth about mormonism why would I give the answer I did?

Why do you uncharitably assume that her intent isn't BOTH?

Mormonism lies to the general public.
I haven't seen or heard any TV or radio commercials in a few years, but they used to misrepresent Mormonism as being "Biblical", and "pro-Jesus", trying to sheep-steal from Christian religions.

They NEVER tell people about "plural gods".
They NEVER tell people about "you can be a god of your own one day".
They NEVER tell people that "works" are required for salvation.
They NEVER tell people that polygamy is a "true principle", that will be practiced in the eternities.
They NEVER tell people that you have to be married to be "exalted".

Yes, Mormonism will tell lies, like, "these teachings aren't important" (yes, they are), or "these are difficult teachings that beginners aren't ready for" (which is false).

 

[Theo1689]

Yep. I believe in being saved by faith alone.

Then you are teaching contrary to Mormonism.

When you say "I believe in being saved by faith alone", what is your PERSONAL understanding of "saved"?

a) Does "saved" merely mean "resurrection"?
b) Does "saved" mean "exaltation"?
c) Does "saved" mean something different (please define: ________ )

 

[Magdalena]

I think this question says more about you than sincerely wanting to know my intent.
If I was trying to hide the truth about mormonism why would I give the answer I did? You'd think I'd be in denial of all the things I said, not embrace them. I'm just giving my reasoning as to why I believe. People are going to think what they want - that's not really my concern.

You’re the one who said this in post #25...

“But go ahead, go shout on the mountain tops and to the world that the Church believes in polygamy - because that's really going to give them the correct impression of the church, and then get mad at the world when they give you strange looks. To me, it's not same.”

The truth is that polygamy is a belief of mormonism. An eternal principle. You can’t change that. And you can’t hide it. That’s being disingenuous to try and give people the wrong impression of mormonism.

If you believe polygamy was wrong, then good for you. Because it is wrong. Like all those other beliefs and practices of mormonism. That should be a huge red flag to you about staying in it. It didn’t come from Christ. And neither did the things you’re still clinging to in it. That’s not how God works. He doesn’t hide little truths in a pile of garbage.

 

[Aaron32]

You’re the one who said this in post #25...

“But go ahead, go shout on the mountain tops and to the world that the Church believes in polygamy - because that's really going to give them the correct impression of the church, and then get mad at the world when they give you strange looks. To me, it's not same.”

Completely ignoring the sentence previous to it:
"Not every marriage is equal. If I a person wants to marry, just for the sake of my name, and be temporally self-reliant, then that's different from a marriage where we have children together. Maybe we don't have a term yet to express the difference yet, but there is a difference."

The truth is that polygamy is a belief of mormonism. An eternal principle. You can’t change that. And you can’t hide it. That’s being disingenuous to try and give people the wrong impression of mormonism.

Eternal marriage a belief of mormonism, not polygamy.
Marriage is received by your own free will and choice. It's a covenant. And if you're not polygamous, guess what? It has no affect on your salvation whatsoever.

 

[Magdalena]

Completely ignoring the sentence previous to it:
"Not every marriage is equal. If I a person wants to marry, just for the sake of my name, and be temporally self-reliant, then that's different from a marriage where we have children together. Maybe we don't have a term yet to express the difference yet, but there is a difference."

Its still polygamy. You can’t get away from that, even though it makes you uncomfortable enough that you want to rename it. That’s what the Mormon church has been doing... renaming, re-packaging doctrines that embarrass them now.

Eternal marriage a belief of mormonism, not polygamy.
Marriage is received by your own free will and choice. It's a covenant. And if you're not polygamous, guess what? It has no affect on your salvation whatsoever.

Polygamy is part of mormonism and their eternal marriage doctrines. D&C 132 makes that clear. Mormons will deny that and say it’s just about the covenant of eternal marriage. But the whole chapter is about polygamy. Smith’s ”new and everlasting covenant” was eternal polygamy.

What would you and your wife do if you were assigned to marriage with multiple other women in the millennium? Would she welcome and be eternally happy about that? Unless she’s ok with hardly ever seeing you, while you’re off being busy with all your other wives. Maybe you would enjoy flitting from one mansion to the next, keeping hundreds or thousands of wives eternally pregnant with spirit children so you can populate the worlds you’ll create.

Think that’s ridiculous? Good. You need a reality check about mormonism.

 

[Aaron32]

Its still polygamy. You can’t get away from that, even though it makes you uncomfortable enough that you want to rename it. That’s what the Mormon church has been doing... renaming, re-packaging doctrines that embarrass them now.

Not necessarily. Something different is still different. Put whatever term or label you want on it, but it's the meaning that matters.

Polygamy is part of mormonism and their eternal marriage doctrines. D&C 132 makes that clear. Mormons will deny that and say it’s just about the covenant of eternal marriage. But the whole chapter is about polygamy. Smith’s ”new and everlasting covenant” was eternal polygamy.

No, the whole chapter is not about polygamy. There's some very fundamental principles about sealings in general. It doesn't talk about polygamy until verse 34, about half way into the section.

What would you and your wife do if you were assigned to marriage with multiple other women in the millennium?

I don't know what we'd do. One fundamental principle is that covenants like that it needs to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. In other words, it needs consent of the Holy Ghost. If God made it known to us then that's what we'd do.

Would she welcome and be eternally happy about that? Unless she’s ok with hardly ever seeing you, while you’re off being busy with all your other wives.

I think it would be a trial and test of faith for sure, but if we trust God knows the best course of our lives, we would learn what is needed in order to fulfill God's commands - that's the point, bending our will to His, so that we become what He wants us to become. But, if we aren't willing to make that sacrifice, then we'd never get that experience and that knowledge, and we'd be short of perfection. My wife and I find our fulfillment in doing God's will. Like the lesson taught in Job, whatever we're willing to sacrifice (release attachment to) to accomplish God's will, the blessings are restored sevenfold. I would certainly hope my wife would not think the blessing of Eternal Life is worth the sole possession of me. Besides, if we threw the baby out with the bath water, and left Mormonism over this subject, what can we look forward to in your theology. My wife would essentially still be single. So what's the difference to her? She loses me either way.

Maybe you would enjoy flitting from one mansion to the next, keeping hundreds or thousands of wives eternally pregnant with spirit children so you can populate the worlds you’ll create.

Read what I wrote to Markk. I don't believe in spiritual procreation. Therefore, supposing I did embrace polygamy in the next life, sex would have nothing to do with my motivation.

Think that’s ridiculous? Good. You need a reality check about mormonism.

I think choosing to believe something to be dirty instead of virtuous, and that the dirty definition must be the absolute meaning is what's ridiculous. You have no grasp on reality. You simply fill in the details to justify a decision you seem to have not made peace with.

 

[Magdalena]

Not necessarily. Something different is still different. Put whatever term or label you want on it, but it's the meaning that matters.

No, the whole chapter is not about polygamy. There's some very fundamental principles about sealings in general. It doesn't talk about polygamy until verse 34, about half way into the section.

I don't know what we'd do. One fundamental principle is that covenants like that it needs to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. In other words, it needs consent of the Holy Ghost. If God made it known to us then that's what we'd do.

I think it would be a trial and test of faith for sure, but if we trust God knows the best course of our lives, we would learn what is needed in order to fulfill God's commands - that's the point, bending our will to His, so that we become what He wants us to become. But, if we aren't willing to make that sacrifice, then we'd never get that experience and that knowledge, and we'd be short of perfection. My wife and I find our fulfillment in doing God's will. Like the lesson taught in Job, whatever we're willing to sacrifice (release attachment to) to accomplish God's will, the blessings are restored sevenfold. I would certainly hope my wife would not think the blessing of Eternal Life is worth the sole possession of me. Besides, if we threw the baby out with the bath water, and left Mormonism over this subject, what can we look forward to in your theology. My wife would essentially still be single. So what's the difference to her? She loses me either way.

Read what I wrote to Markk. I don't believe in spiritual procreation. Therefore, supposing I did embrace polygamy in the next life, sex would have nothing to do with my motivation.

I think choosing to believe something to be dirty instead of virtuous, and that the dirty definition must be the absolute meaning is what's ridiculous. You have no grasp on reality. You simply fill in the details to justify a decision you seem to have not made peace with.

No, Aaron. You’re the one who is trying to adjust mormon doctrines to make you feel more comfortable. The reality of it is something entirely different. Something you don’t believe either, but you’re still not willing to leave it.

You asked what you could look forward to if you left. Living forever with Christ, in His kingdom. Knowing the peace that comes thru real faith in Him. Following Him alone, and not having to try to justify false prophets anymore.

You talk about making sacrifices. Well, are you willing to give up your own interpretations and expectations, and just follow what Christ said?

 

[organgrinder]

Aaron, I have read your posts on this thread and on the eternal marriage/polygamy thread. You have become more Christian in your thoughts and beliefs in trying to reconcile Mormonism to Biblical Christianity. How do you square what Jesus said in the Gospels in answering the religious leaders on the question of marriage after death? I am curious of your understanding.

From post #22 of this thread:

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
(Matthew 22:29-30 NKJV)

And "like" is not the same as "are".

Theo has quoted other scriptures involving marriage (a section in Romans) but neither you or BOJ have addressed this scripture.

 

[Markk]

Eternal marriage a belief of mormonism, not polygamy.
Marriage is received by your own free will and choice. It's a covenant. And if you're not polygamous, guess what? It has no affect on your salvation whatsoever.

Today it might be a belief, and even taught so as temporal…but doctrinal taught by Joseph in section 132, it is The Everlasting Covenant (ELC) and thos ethat don’t enter into it as polygamy are damed. Any study of The ELC makes that clear. If you are in a plural marriage and in the church, and get excommunicated…then I can only guess the church today would outwardly say their salvation is not secure…with language that leaves wiggle room, but inwardly wold agree with you. But who really knows.

Suggested reading on the ELC is ”The Journals of William Clayton.”

An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton: Smith, George D.: 9781560850229: Amazon.com: Books

An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton [Smith, George D.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton

www.amazon.com

 

[Aaron32]

Aaron, I have read your posts on this thread and on the eternal marriage/polygamy thread. You have become more Christian in your thoughts and beliefs in trying to reconcile Mormonism to Biblical Christianity. How do you square what Jesus said in the Gospels in answering the religious leaders on the question of marriage after death? I am curious of your understanding.

From post #22 of this thread:

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
(Matthew 22:29-30 NKJV)

And "like" is not the same as "are".

Theo has quoted other scriptures involving marriage (a section in Romans) but neither you or BOJ have addressed this scripture.

In the resurrection people do not marry (verb), nor are given (verb) in marriage. That doesn't say people are not married (adjective). Just as people don't get baptized (verb) in heaven, yet are baptized (adjective). All ordinances need to be performed in mortality. That's why we have temples.Those not married are angels, the lowest level in the celestial kingdom.

 

[Aaron32]

No, Aaron. You’re the one who is trying to adjust mormon doctrines to make you feel more comfortable. The reality of it is something entirely different. Something you don’t believe either, but you’re still not willing to leave it.

Yeah, we know when we've reached the end of a discussion when it turns into finger pointing.

You asked what you could look forward to if you left. Living forever with Christ, in His kingdom. Knowing the peace that comes thru real faith in Him. Following Him alone, and not having to try to justify false prophets anymore.

I have that already thanks.

You talk about making sacrifices. Well, are you willing to give up your own interpretations and expectations, and just follow what Christ said?

Ummm...that's and interesting question. I thought that's what I've been doing. I don't claim my interpretations to be my own. Are you claiming to speak for Christ? Are you a prophet?

 

[Aaron32]

Today it might be a belief, and even taught so as temporal…but doctrinal taught by Joseph in section 132, it is The Everlasting Covenant (ELC) and thos ethat don’t enter into it as polygamy are damed. Any study of The ELC makes that clear. If you are in a plural marriage and in the church, and get excommunicated…then I can only guess the church today would outwardly say their salvation is not secure…with language that leaves wiggle room, but inwardly wold agree with you. But who really knows.

It's the new and everlasting covenant of marriage not of polygamy.
Moreover, marriage is a new and everlasting covenant, not THE new and everlasting covenant.

Here's the diagram showed in the instructors guide to the D&C institute manual:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32494_eng.pdf

Here's references given in the lesson that came from what you would recognize as authoritative:
DS, 1: 153-59. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the new and everlasting covenant. See also Gos. Doc., p. 85.
DS, 1 :154. God stipulates all covenants relating to salvation and eternal life, and man has no right to alter them.
Discourses, p. 160. What do Latter-day Saints receive by covenant when they enter the Church through baptism?
Teachings, p. 323. What is the significant difference between covenants made through the Aaronic Priesthood and those of the Melchizedek Priesthood?
DS, 1:160-64. The word dispensation is defined and some of the dispensations of the gospel are briefly mentioned and commented upon.
DS, 2:338-47. What is the purpose of sacrament meeting?

 

[Theo1689]

In the resurrection people do not marry (verb), nor are given (verb) in marriage.

... but are like angels in heaven.

Why did you forget to quote that part, Aaron?
Angels aren't "married".

"The Sadducees made this one of their objections to belief in the resurrection body, revealing thus their own ignorance of the true resurrection body and the future life where marriage functions do not exist. [...] The angels are directly created, not procreated."
-- A.T. Robertson, "Word Pictures"

"[T]his passage teaches that the peculiar relation of marriage will not exist. It does not affirm, however, that there will be no recollection of former marriages, or no recognition of each other as having existed in this tender relation."
-- Albert Barnes, "Notes on the New Testament"

"They are as the angels—Incorruptible and immortal. So is the power of God shown in them! So little need had they of marriage!"
-- John Wesley


You need to remember that this is Jesus' response to the trap the Sadducees set for Jesus, of the woman who married 7 brothers, each in sequence after the previous one died (I wonder why she didn't engage in polygamy? It's almost as if she knew that marriage continues until death, and only then is she free to marry another, cf. Rom. 7:2-3, 1 Cor. 7:39).

If marriage existed in heaven, "who's wife shall she be?" It seems that even the Sadducees knew that heaven wasn't polygamous.

Jesus' response to this loaded question was "In heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven". They only valid way to understand this answer is that there is no marriage in heaven (which is consistent with marriage ending at death, Rom. 7:2-3, 1 Cor. 7:39).

Jesus' answer would be very BIZARRE in light of the LDS understanding.