Abortion: Genocide in the Womb

BMS

Well-known member
The comparison of abortion to the Holocaust, similar to the declaration that abortion is murder, has the opposite effect of that intended, at least on me. I have a great deal of sympathy for those with a moral abhorrence of abortion, but the sympathy is eroded by these silly tropes. No, abortion is not in any way like the Holocaust. No, abortion is not murder. Those who declare otherwise make themselves appear so foolish that their point of view is no longer worth considering by those of a contrary view. And they know this, but persist. And that's the problem. Not that the gulf is so wide, but that there is no attempt to bridge it, just to prop up the position of one's own side.
Well no because we are talking about killing, and terminating a life is is rather different from anything else regarding a living human being.

You know, you keep talking about morals being up to the individual and then seem to post your morals as though it matters to anyone else.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
I know, I thought that was clear, and individuals were subject to the Nazis assessment of their Jewishness. Two different ways of selection for killing
With regard to abortion, who is doing the selecting?
Which individual or organization is making the decision for all unborn?

None.
The answer is none.

This comparison to the Holocaust is offensively inappropriate.
 

BMS

Well-known member
With regard to abortion, who is doing the selecting?
Which individual or organization is making the decision for all unborn?
Well in regard to the Nazis, who is doing the selecting and making all decisions for all people based on their Jewishness?

None.
The answer is none.
Yes I know, that is a difference. Are you trying to suggest the difference you point out trumps the difference I point out? If so, forget it, both are killing the human being.

This comparison to the Holocaust is offensively inappropriate.
Tough. Pro-choice abortion is offensive, both involve pre-meditated killing another human being. Actually the holocaust killed lots of people for different reasons
 

BMS

Well-known member
The Nazis.
An organization dedicated to the cause.

And for abortion?

Then how can you consider abortion to be genocide, when that is the difference?
So you are trying to suggest the difference you point out trumps the difference I point out? If so, forget it, both are killing the human being.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
So you are trying to suggest the difference you point out trumps the difference I point out?
Yes.

Genocide is done on ideological grounds.
Abortion is not.
If so, forget it, both are killing the human being.
OK - capital punishment is also genocide because it kills a specific class of humans (criminals).

If you can be utterly bereft of sense, so can I.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yes.

Genocide is done on ideological grounds.
Abortion is not.

OK - capital punishment is also genocide because it kills a specific class of humans (criminals).

If you can be utterly bereft of sense, so can I.
Suicide is genocide, since it kills a specific group of people ( suicidal people). Palliative care is genocide, since it eases the passing of a specific group of people ( the terminally ill). Shut down all those hospices! They are just like the gas chambers, where men, women and even children are shipped off to die!
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
If so, forget it, both are killing the human being.

of course it is

Says the poster who cant define a woman
If you recall, I define woman exactly the same way you do.

You jump to this as way of getting out of fights you can't win.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
They are not being killed merely because they are unborn.
They are being killed because they are inside unwilling women.

If the pregnant woman doesn't want them there, they are an intruder, plain and simple.
Surely they were invited when the woman made the choice to have unprotected sex.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
The comparison of abortion to the Holocaust, similar to the declaration that abortion is murder, has the opposite effect of that intended, at least on me. I have a great deal of sympathy for those with a moral abhorrence of abortion, but the sympathy is eroded by these silly tropes. No, abortion is not in any way like the Holocaust. No, abortion is not murder. Those who declare otherwise make themselves appear so foolish that their point of view is no longer worth considering by those of a contrary view. And they know this, but persist. And that's the problem. Not that the gulf is so wide, but that there is no attempt to bridge it, just to prop up the position of one's own side.
We persist because we acknowledge that personhood begins at conception. The Holocaust is an apt description of the results of abortion. What happens to all of those developing fetuses once removed from the womb...are they incinerated? thrown in the trash?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
No.
If you have sex with the goal of becoming pregnant, that is an invitation.

Leaving one's car unlocked is not an invitation for a stranger to use it.
Your analogy fails. The baby doesn't crawl into the womb like into a car trunk (boot). It is invited knowingly by not preventing it to begin with. The baby cannot get into the womb of its own volition.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Your analogy fails. The baby doesn't crawl into the womb like into a car trunk (boot). It is invited knowingly by not preventing it to begin with. The baby cannot get into the womb of its own volition.
As I said, pregnancy is only invited when it is the goal of the sexual encounter.

"I want to get pregnant" is an invitation; "I want to have unprotected sex" is not.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
The exception is the unborn human being. Clearly this entity is biologically a human being. Saying otherwise would be absurd. Equally obviously throughout history and still in most places on earth, the unborn is not regarded as a sociological human being, what I refer to as a person. Whether it should be or not, is the nub of the abortion argument. That argument has nothing to do with the biological realities. 1. Does our society consider the unborn as a member of society, 2. Is a person, as a sociological human being? No, it doesn't. 3. Should it do so? In my opinion, no it shouldn't. 4. Has human DNA got anything to do with it? No.
I would answer all of your questions with a resounding "yes" because of all of the reasons that were given in the article. Society's definition of a human person varies and is arbitrary.
A human can be a person one minute then have a stroke and that same human might no longer fulfill the definition of a human person. That is ridiculous!
 

Temujin

Well-known member
We persist because we acknowledge that personhood begins at conception. The Holocaust is an apt description of the results of abortion. What happens to all of those developing fetuses once removed from the womb...are they incinerated? thrown in the trash?
No, it is an appalling and completely inaccurate comparison. You could compare with the numbers killed in road accidents or as a result of gunshot injuries or some such, but the Holocaust doesn't work for the reason given. No individual or group is advocating or seeking the death of all unborn children. A large number of individuals are deciding that due to their individual circumstances they wish to have an abortion. Calling it a Holocaust is hyperbolic and an egregious example of Godwin's Law.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
As I said, pregnancy is only invited when it is the goal of the sexual encounter.

"I want to get pregnant" is an invitation; "I want to have unprotected sex" is not.
The woman is inviting pregnancy by having unprotected sex. We understand the consequences and are inviting a baby into our womb by not protecting against an unwanted pregnancy. Knowingly and willingly. We are not ignorant of where babies come from.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
The woman is inviting pregnancy by having unprotected sex. We understand the consequences and are inviting a baby into our womb by not protecting against an unwanted pregnancy. Knowingly and willingly. We are not ignorant of where babies come from.
If I send you a piece of paper with the date and time of my wedding and tell you that I want you to be there, that is an invitation to my wedding.

If I don't send you such a paper, but nor do I send you a piece of paper telling you not to come, that is not an invitation to my wedding.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
No, it is an appalling and completely inaccurate comparison. You could compare with the numbers killed in road accidents or as a result of gunshot injuries or some such, but the Holocaust doesn't work for the reason given. No individual or group is advocating or seeking the death of all unborn children. A large number of individuals are deciding that due to their individual circumstances they wish to have an abortion. Calling it a Holocaust is hyperbolic and an egregious example of Godwin's Law.
I find abortions appalling because it is the death of a human person...that is the reason it can be compared to the Holocaust (not Hitler). It is not simply a matter of degree whether it is all or just the deaths of some unborn babies. It is not merely a "large number" but a very significant number of abortions yearly. If you saw all of the bodies of those 46 million babies aborted this year, would not the Holocaust come to your mind at all especially if they were all disposed of in an incinerator?

To keep this in perspective, this is from the first few sentences in the article in the OP, "Every second 87.5 babies are being aborted somewhere in this world. Annually, that adds up to more than 46 million babies who never see the light of day. In the United States 2.3 babies are aborted every minute, totaling 1.2 million per year. Nearly 50 million babies have been aborted in the United States since 1973. Currently, more than one out of every five babies is aborted in this country.1"
 
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