Abortion Ministry of Misinformation.

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Abortion is the most hideous thing to come to western civilization. To justify it, a web of lies has to be woven, as the OP has cited.

I do believe the blood of these innocents does cry out to Heaven.
Amen. There is not an excuse that justifies this monstrous act.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Abortion and early infanticide have been with humanity for a very long time, probably as long as there has been humanity. It is a hideous thing, but so is the alternative. Sometimes hard choices must be made. Depriving people of the ability to make that choice is at least as dehumanising as abortion.
I see. So people choose murder instead of many other options.
 

Sherman

Active member
Abortion and early infanticide have been with humanity for a very long time, probably as long as there has been humanity. It is a hideous thing, but so is the alternative. Sometimes hard choices must be made. Depriving people of the ability to make that choice is at least as dehumanising as abortion.
"Choice" and Pro Choice" has come to sound ugly. It's a coverup for murder. Murder isn't a choice.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Murder is a legal standard, and if the abortion is done early enough, no persons are harmed by it.

Slavery was condoned by the law. It was/is an intrinsic evil. So is killing another human being.

Your arguments show that you don't understand the issues at all.

From the SLED model.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.
 

Diogenes

Active member
Slavery was condoned by the law. It was/is an intrinsic evil. So is killing another human being.

Slavery was still called slavery under the law. From the conception, it is human, I never dismissed that. I said if the abortion is done early enough, a person isn't harmed.

Your arguments show that you don't understand the issues at all.

From the SLED model.

I've heard of "SLED".

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

I said nothing about size.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.

An eight year old and an adolescent are both persons, pre-neural development, an embryo isn't a person. And before you bring up slaves, slaves were persons. The issue I brought up specifically was personhood.

The acorn-oak tree has no such distinction so it's not analogous. You'd have to modify it to an acorn-ent to be analogous.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Slavery was still called slavery under the law. From the conception, it is human, I never dismissed that. I said if the abortion is done early enough, a person isn't harmed.



I've heard of "SLED".



I said nothing about size.



An eight year old and an adolescent are both persons, pre-neural development, an embryo isn't a person. And before you bring up slaves, slaves were persons. The issue I brought up specifically was personhood.

The acorn-oak tree has no such distinction so it's not analogous. You'd have to modify it to an acorn-ent to be analogous.

A Fetus is a human being. Pro choice people like to use words to distract from the fact that the child is a human being. So size has everything to do with it.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
A Fetus is a human being.
Whether or not a fetus is a human being is not determined.

Pro choice people like to use words to distract from the fact that the child is a human being. So size has everything to do with it.
Pro-choice people like to use correct words. Pro-lifers like to use words that carry emotional content, as they rely on arguments from emotion.
 

Diogenes

Active member
A Fetus is a human being. Pro choice people like to use words to distract from the fact that the child is a human being. So size has everything to do with it.

If by "human being" you're including personhood, I agree personhood is obtained during pregnancy, just during the 1st Trimester. If by "human being" you're just meaning chromosomal organisation, I would agree zygotes are humans, just not persons.

I never mentioned size at all.

The best analogy for theists would be ensoulment, but that's needlessly complicated as you get into vegetative and sensitive souls, how the soul interacts with the body, etc.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
I see. So people choose murder instead of many other options.
Then you don't see at all. Even when illegal, abortion is not murder. Anyone describing legal abortion as murder is ignoring reality. If inaccurate sentimentality is all you have then it's not surprising that you have lost the argument.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Slavery was condoned by the law. It was/is an intrinsic evil. So is killing another human being.

Your arguments show that you don't understand the issues at all.

From the SLED model.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.
We have discussed SLED before. You failed to sell it then. It's a rubbish argument that doesn't come close to addressing why pro-choice advocates sincerely believe that legal abortion rights are a moral imperative.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yes it is. You can pile on as many excuses as you can, but taking the life of another human being is MURDER.
Not every instance of taking the life of a human being (if a foetus can be described as such) is murder. Murder has a specific legal definition, which abortion doesn't come close to meeting. "Abortion is murder" is as banal as "Wearing these tight shoes is murder."
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Slavery was condoned by the law. It was/is an intrinsic evil. So is killing another human being.

Your arguments show that you don't understand the issues at all.

From the SLED model.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.
We discussed the SLED model here: It didn't go well for you then.
I have never seen an argument for abortion based on size, so this is a complete red herring. In the spirit of which, I would point out that the vast majority of abortions happen when the foetus is smaller than a grain of rice, and with the same cerebral capacity.
A foetus is not a person at an early stage of development, just as an acorn is not a little tiny tree.
Leaving aside for one moment the question of whether the foetus is a human being, the importance of the location is that it is inside the body of the mother, whose status as a human being is not in question. What is more the foetus can cause harm, sometimes very serious harm to the mother. The only person who can permit this situation to continue is the mother. Forcing her to go through an unwanted pregnancy and risk harm is contrary to her human rights, rights to which the foetus is not entitled.

The point of dependency is that the foetus, and only the foetus, is totally dependent on one sole person. If you can find a way to remove the foetus from the womb and care for it some other way, then I would be content to ban abortion tomorrow. The aim of an abortion is to end the pregnancy. It is the pregnancy that is terminated. Put some church funds into find a way to do that without killing the foetus, and you can claim your Nobel prize.

Abortion is justified by the decision, upheld in courts and legislatures throughout the world, that the foetus is not a person. There are several reasons given why this is so., but roughly they boil down to two. Firstly, the foetus is not a person because it is not viable. It cannot survive outside the womb as an independent entity. The second reason given is that to be a person requires a degree of sentience, which is absent in the foetus. Personally, I find the first reason more persuasive. Neither reason is addressed by your ludicrous SLED acronym.
 

Diogenes

Active member
We have discussed SLED before. You failed to sell it then. It's a rubbish argument that doesn't come close to addressing why pro-choice advocates sincerely believe that legal abortion rights are a moral imperative.

Abortion is largely a matter of convenience, not moral imperative.
 
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