about 14 million. That is the number of Jews in the world.

Yahchristian

Well-known member
mother to mother to mother descent? about 14 million. That is the number of Jews in the world.

So how many of the 14 million Jews today are of the tribe of Manasseh (fulling his blessing)?

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

1/12 of 14 million?

Whereas Ishmael has maybe 430 million descendants today.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
So how many of the 14 million Jews today are of the tribe of Manasseh (fulling his blessing)?

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

1/12 of 14 million?

Whereas Ishmael has maybe 430 million descendants today.
Yahchrisitan, most Jews today do not know their tribal affiliation. Not all families kept good records, and many of the families that did keep good records lost them in the holocaust. It is enough for us, that we know we are the People of Israel.

Saying that Manasseh would be the father of many nations, does not mean those nations are Israelites.


So I keep asking you what the point of your inquiry is. Why is this topic important to you? For example, are you thinking in the back of your head that you are an Israelite and therefore can lay claim to the promises, such as the land of Canaan?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
tribal affiliation
"When the feast of Passover came...a Moabite shepherd came to David and talked with him saying,
'My lord the King, you have know that I, your servant, have been loyal to Israel from my youth,
an now take me away from dwelling among uncircumcised people and circumcise the flesh of my
foreskin to take away my reproach, so that I can sit among your People'
And David said, 'the LORD does not want your people', and He commanded

'An Amorite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of the LORD forever' (Deut. 23:3)

'And we cannot seek your peace nor your prosperity, but can I help you today?'
The servant answered, 'Is it not true that Ruth was of our people, and you are one of her children
and descendants forever?'
David said, 'You have given an compelling argument. Stand here with me to ask from the mouth of the LORD.'
And David asked the LORD (using the Urim and Thummim) about the statement of the Moabite servant.
David said, 'Oh LORD of hosts, please teach me wondrous things out of your Law so that I may know
how to rule for this servant, and what should be done with him.'
And the LORD said to Nathan the prophet....'This is what the LORD says,
Tell the Moabite "You are a Moabite man, not a Moabite woman, for I never said 'Moabite man' or
'Ammonite woman' because their women and daughters belong to the LORD. however
you are cursed by the LORD, and forbidden to enter the LORD's assembly.'
And when the Moabite heard the words of the LORD he exclaimed
'I am forbidden from entering the assembly of the LORD."
And the King appointed him a shepherd among the shepherds of David, and he was there until
the third year of the reign of Solomon, when he died.
And he had a daughter named Sephirah, ...and Solomon took her as one of his concubines, and
she found favor in his sight more than all the other concubines and became chief over
all the concubines residence. (possibly wife status)
And this became the statute in Israel forever."
- Book of Gad the Seer, Chapter 9

Commentary:
Women became a part of whatever tribe they married into, Males stay in the same tribe of birth.
The Moabite and his family were still accepted among Israel, and lived out their lives there.
The daughter possibly became part of Israel proper.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
"When the feast of Passover came...a Moabite shepherd came to David and talked with him saying,
'My lord the King, you have know that I, your servant, have been loyal to Israel from my youth,
an now take me away from dwelling among uncircumcised people and circumcise the flesh of my
foreskin to take away my reproach, so that I can sit among your People'
And David said, 'the LORD does not want your people', and He commanded

'An Amorite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of the LORD forever' (Deut. 23:3)

'And we cannot seek your peace nor your prosperity, but can I help you today?'
The servant answered, 'Is it not true that Ruth was of our people, and you are one of her children
and descendants forever?'
David said, 'You have given an compelling argument. Stand here with me to ask from the mouth of the LORD.'
And David asked the LORD (using the Urim and Thummim) about the statement of the Moabite servant.
David said, 'Oh LORD of hosts, please teach me wondrous things out of your Law so that I may know
how to rule for this servant, and what should be done with him.'
And the LORD said to Nathan the prophet....'This is what the LORD says,
Tell the Moabite "You are a Moabite man, not a Moabite woman, for I never said 'Moabite man' or
'Ammonite woman' because their women and daughters belong to the LORD. however
you are cursed by the LORD, and forbidden to enter the LORD's assembly.'
And when the Moabite heard the words of the LORD he exclaimed
'I am forbidden from entering the assembly of the LORD."
And the King appointed him a shepherd among the shepherds of David, and he was there until
the third year of the reign of Solomon, when he died.
And he had a daughter named Sephirah, ...and Solomon took her as one of his concubines, and
she found favor in his sight more than all the other concubines and became chief over
all the concubines residence. (possibly wife status)
And this became the statute in Israel forever."
- Book of Gad the Seer, Chapter 9

Commentary:
Women became a part of whatever tribe they married into, Males stay in the same tribe of birth.
The Moabite and his family were still accepted among Israel, and lived out their lives there.
The daughter possibly became part of Israel proper.
This is confusing to me.
Do God told the Moabite man that he could not enter the assembly but Solomon allowed him to be among the shepherds of David. So he wasn't allowed to enter the temple or worship in the synagogue, right, or partake of Passover.
What happened to him when he died...he was condemned?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
he wasn't allowed to enter the temple or worship in the synagogue, right, or partake of Passover
I think you are correct here in what he couldn't do as a Gentile - the Commentary states those exact things.
Whatever a Gentile should/could do (Noahide law/ any "area of the Gentiles" activity if it existed) would be required/allowed.
If male conversions to become part of Israel might have taken place then, Moabite and Ammonite males were excluded.
(I typo-ed "man" for "woman" end of line 15 :/)

I don't see Synagogues existing yet, but preaching to the community yes - book of Gad contains a sermon David delivered to the People.
I assume parents taught their children then.

What happened to him when he died...he was condemned?
If he believed in the true God and trusted that God as his Savior, then I would view him as a saved person - my view anyway.
I assume Judaism would emphasize necessity of Noahide law observance for a place in the World to come.

Nathan was a Gentile himself, and a prophet of God - helping David be the best Jewish king He could be.
 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
This might be relevant -
and there is interesting stuff in the Interpretations part.

Question for Jews here -
Does confirmation or conversion to Judaism have any "marriage" aspects to it?

There is the Israel as wife of God aspect, and the "marriage" concept is a Thing for Christians.
 
Last edited:

Yahchristian

Well-known member
So I keep asking you what the point of your inquiry is. Why is this topic important to you?

Because I believe the Bible is true, and...

If the following is true, then there has to be far more than one or two million descendants of Manasseh today.

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Because I believe the Bible is true, and...

If the following is true, then there has to be far more than one or two million descendants of Manasseh today.

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
I'm just saying that just because someone has the DNA from Manasseh doesn't make them part of the Children of Israel. Jewish identity passes only through the maternal line.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
This is confusing to me.
Do God told the Moabite man that he could not enter the assembly but Solomon allowed him to be among the shepherds of David. So he wasn't allowed to enter the temple or worship in the synagogue, right, or partake of Passover.
What happened to him when he died...he was condemned?
It doesn't say. The Tanakh isn't really concerned with what happens to us after we die. It's all about obeying God while we are alive.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
"When the feast of Passover came...a Moabite shepherd came to David and talked with him saying,
'My lord the King, you have know that I, your servant, have been loyal to Israel from my youth,
an now take me away from dwelling among uncircumcised people and circumcise the flesh of my
foreskin to take away my reproach, so that I can sit among your People'
And David said, 'the LORD does not want your people', and He commanded

'An Amorite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of the LORD forever' (Deut. 23:3)

'And we cannot seek your peace nor your prosperity, but can I help you today?'
The servant answered, 'Is it not true that Ruth was of our people, and you are one of her children
and descendants forever?'
David said, 'You have given an compelling argument. Stand here with me to ask from the mouth of the LORD.'
And David asked the LORD (using the Urim and Thummim) about the statement of the Moabite servant.
David said, 'Oh LORD of hosts, please teach me wondrous things out of your Law so that I may know
how to rule for this servant, and what should be done with him.'
And the LORD said to Nathan the prophet....'This is what the LORD says,
Tell the Moabite "You are a Moabite man, not a Moabite woman, for I never said 'Moabite man' or
'Ammonite woman' because their women and daughters belong to the LORD. however
you are cursed by the LORD, and forbidden to enter the LORD's assembly.'
And when the Moabite heard the words of the LORD he exclaimed
'I am forbidden from entering the assembly of the LORD."
And the King appointed him a shepherd among the shepherds of David, and he was there until
the third year of the reign of Solomon, when he died.
And he had a daughter named Sephirah, ...and Solomon took her as one of his concubines, and
she found favor in his sight more than all the other concubines and became chief over
all the concubines residence. (possibly wife status)
And this became the statute in Israel forever."
- Book of Gad the Seer, Chapter 9

Commentary:
Women became a part of whatever tribe they married into, Males stay in the same tribe of birth.
The Moabite and his family were still accepted among Israel, and lived out their lives there.
The daughter possibly became part of Israel proper.
What makes you think a woman lost her tribal affiliation when she married?

Ruth was a convert because she said, "Let your God be my God, and let your people be my people." Thus she was adopted into Israel.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I'm just saying that just because someone has the DNA from Manasseh doesn't make them part of the Children of Israel. Jewish identity passes only through the maternal line.

So, how many descendants of Manasseh do you think are alive today?

More or less than 2 million?

More or less than 20 million?

More or less than 200 million?

Personally, I think more than 200 million considering..

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
So, how many descendants of Manasseh do you think are alive today?

More or less than 2 million?

More or less than 20 million?

More or less than 200 million?

Personally, I think more than 200 million considering..

Genesis 48:19... And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
I have no idea. It's not important. The overwhelming majority are not direct maternal lineage, so they are not part of the People of Israel.

Why is it important to you? If I were you, I would stop guessing how many. YOu just don't know.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
But it IS important.

Either Manasseh’s “seed shall become a multitude of nations” or not.
Sure the prophecy is fulfilled. But that doesn't make it important relative to the things we are talking about. We were talking about how many Israelites/Hebrews/Jews there are in the world today, which is unrelated to that verse.

Genetics is an interesting field. The father back you go, the more likelihood you are of finding that you are descended from someone significant. Do you know for example, how many people are descendants of Ghengis Khan there are today? About 16 million. Go back far enough, and we are all of us descended from Mitochondrial Even and Y-chromosome Adam. It's an interesting tid bit. But it's not IMPORTANT.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Say what you will AG, you blamed God for the atrocities the christian church and the nazis perpetrated against the Jews. YOu have blamed the Jews ourselves for the antisemitism against us. That self-reveal is not going to ever go away
God Predicts Israel's Rebellion

"And Moses was on the Mount forty days and forty nights,...

...now write them in a book in order that their generations may see how I have not forsaken them for
all the evil they have wrought in transgressing the covenant which I establish between Me and you
for their generations this day on Mount Sinai. And it will come to pass when all these things come
upon them, that they will recognize that I am more righteous than they in all their judgements and
in all their actions, and they will recognize that I have been truly with them. And do you write for yourself
all these words which I declare to you this day, for I know their rebellion and their stiff neck, before I bring
them into the land which I swore to their forefathers, to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob saying.
'Unto your seed I will give this land flowing with milk and honey. And they will eat and be satisfied, and they
will turn to strange gods which cannot deliver them from...their tribulation. And this witness shall be herd for
a witness against them
....and they will fall into the hands of the enemy...because they have forsaken My...

many will perish...
And I will send witnesses to them ...but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also,
and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change everything, so as to
work evil before my eyes.
And I shall hide my face from them, and I shall deliver them into the hands of the Gentiles, for captivity, and
for a prey, and for devouring
, and I shall remove them from the midst of the land, and I shall scatter them
among the Gentiles." - Book of Jubilees, ch. 1 pg. 1-2

Gentiles will treat Jews among them badly,
Israel is there because God put them there, and as a People they deserve to be there,
all that happens to them is a witness that God keeps his promises - even the curses,
God is Righteous, Israel is not.

"...I shall not fail them, for I am the LORD..."
 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
God Predicts the Messianic Kingdom

And the Lord said unto Moses, "I know their contrariness and their thoughts and
their stiffneckedness, and they will not be obedient until they confess their sin and the sin
of their forefathers.
And after this they will turn to me in all uprightness, and with all their
heart and will all their soul, and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the
foreskin of the heart of their seed, and I will create in them a holy spirit, and I shall
cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from that day unto eternity.
And their souls will cleave to me and they will keep all my commandments..."

Only when Israel confesses a specific national sin, will they get the Kingdom they desire.

"and they will be called children of the living God"
- Book of Jubilees, ch. 1 pg. 3-4
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
But it IS important.

Either Manasseh’s “seed shall become a multitude of nations” or not.
Sure. It was fulfilled. Ephraim, the younger son, became associated with the 10 Northern Tribes of the Kingdom of Israel.

V19 says, the younger will become greater, and his offspring will fill the nations.

Each tribe is considered a nation, as Jacob and Esau were. When Jews bless their sons, it is done in the manner of v20, where the fullness of the blessing, filling, is through Ephraim.

You crack me up.
 

101G

Well-known member
Addressing the OP,
How are you counting Jews, externally or internally? so who is a JEW?
Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Top