About those LDS temples.....

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En Hakkore

Well-known member
Wow! It is great to see you here, Jonathan! I am now glad I made the decision to re-join the forum. For a number of years I have been wondering whether our paths would cross again. And I sincerely hope things are going well for you, too.
Academically speaking great (successfully defended the thesis, one essay published and a few others at various stages of the copy editing process, also got a book in the works). My health, unfortunately, is not so great as I'm no longer the spring chick I was when I first started posting on CARM twenty years ago... then again I'm only 45 so not that old either! In any case, I'll fight until I can't fight no more! After that, in the words of George Llewelyn Davies immortalized in the mouth of Peter Pan, "To die will be an awfully big adventure!" I'll frequent this forum a little more often now that I know you're back as I've always enjoyed our interactions...

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

kpasa

Member
If that were true--why were the saints working night and day in the temple?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 11:1-2---King James Version
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Millennial reign vs the New Jerusalem and the eternal kingdom. Perhaps these are two different eras, no? If the kingdom is restored to Israel, then the believers (converts of Israel and other nations) will serve during the Messianic temple era. After that period is over then:

Revelation 21:22

English Standard Version

22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie,

You reject Paul's reference in Romans 3 and other scriptures, as referring to the Mosaic Law and only pertaining to Israel that it is OT and Old
Covenant and has nothing to do with the NT and the Atonement,

I don't remember saying the OT covenant didn't have anything to do with the NT covenant. I stated they were different covenants.

and then you turn right around and post scripture admonishing people to keep the commandments so they can attain eternal life supporting your argument about how faith has to have works.

That's because the ten commandments were part of the gospel before and after the OT covenant--and also part of the OT covenant.

1 John 2:3-4----King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That's because the ten commandments were part of the gospel before and after the OT covenant--and also part of the OT covenant.

Nope, the ten commandments were NEVER "part of the gospel".
The gospel is the solution for the problem created by our INABILITY to obey the commandments (Rom. 3:19-20).

1 John 2:3-4----King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Cause: Knowing him
Effect: Keeping the commandments.

So what was your point again?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So what was your point again?

The commandments were part of the gospel of Jesus Christ:

1 John 2:3-4----King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 17:3---King James Version
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

Tally that up, Theo.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The commandments were part of the gospel of Jesus Christ:

No, they're not.

1 John 2:3-4----King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That doesn't say ANYTHING about "the commandments were part of the gospel".
Where do you see the term, "gospel" anywhere in the passage you quoted?

John 17:3---King James Version
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

That doesn't say ANYTHING about "the commandments were part of the gospel".
Where do you see the term, "commandments" anywhere in the passage you quoted?


The only way the "commandments" have ANYTHING to do with the gospel, is to dash our hopes in salvation by our own efforts (ie. "obeying"), and to instead plead for mercy to our Creator God:

That doesn't say ANYTHING about "the commandments were part of the gospel".
Where do you see the term, "gospel" anywhere in the passage you quoted?

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Law was NEVER intended to save anyone.
The Law was ONLY ever intended to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

But for some reason, you HATE these verses.
Because they teach truth.
And to quote Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth!" ;)

Tally that up, Theo.

Considering that your position is so completely bankrupt, you might want to consider losing the attitude...
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Millennial reign vs the New Jerusalem and the eternal kingdom. Perhaps these are two different eras, no? If the kingdom is restored to Israel, then the believers (converts of Israel and other nations) will serve during the Messianic temple era. After that period is over then:

Revelation 21:22

English Standard Version

22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

That's after the New Heavens and new earth.

This is before:

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 11:1-2---King James Version
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So--what church has temples which people wear white robes in?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
That doesn't say ANYTHING about "the commandments were part of the gospel".
Where do you see the term, "gospel" anywhere in the passage you quoted?

gospel--​

noun
the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.
the story of Christ's life and teachings, especially as contained in the first four books of the New Testament, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
(usually initial capital letter) any of these four books.
something regarded as true and implicitly believed:

So--was this a teaching of Jesus Christ--found in the first four books of the NT? Is it true?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


That is a reference to the ten commandments?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

gospel--​

noun
the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.
the story of Christ's life and teachings, especially as contained in the first four books of the New Testament, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
(usually initial capital letter) any of these four books.
something regarded as true and implicitly believed:

So--was this a teaching of Jesus Christ--found in the first four books of the NT? Is it true?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That is a reference to the ten commandments?

Wow... So now you're playing games with the definition of the term, "gospel", conflating its meaning as "plan of salvation" with "a book describing the life and death of Jesus"?

Congratulations on throwing out most of the Bible:
Rom. 3:19-20
Rom. 4:1-6
Rom. 11:5-6
Gal. 3:24-25
Eph. 2:8-9
2 Tim. 1:9
Tit. 3:5
etc.
etc.
etc.

Your actions demonstrate the Mormon contempt and hatred for the Bible.
 
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