Abraham and Joseph Smith covenanted to live the New and Everlasting Covenant.

[Richard7]

Correct!
All the patriarchs were sinners!
What part of that aren't you getting?

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Or have you REDEFINED the word, "all"?

Or are you okay with the word adultery.. so as not to put words in your mouth would it be okay say that Abraham and all the other great Patriarchs were adulterers according to you?

 

[Richard7]

I'm using your example. You're the one who mentioned Abraham so I replied to your claim. Perhaps you'd care to address my point now?

You gave only one excuse for your denial of it being lawful.... what do you do with the rest of the Patriarchs that practiced plural marriage..did they have to listen to their wives before they committed to plural marriage..... I think that answers your question by suggesting that the others did not do it because their wife said, here take this handmaiden... chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

You're the one making this claim. The burden of proof is upon you to document where you got this idea from.

Sure I can. There is no place in scripture where this law is prescribed. If so, where?

Strawman argument. Where have I condemned Joseph Smith?

I don't really know much of anything about Joseph Smith, but if he prescribes plural marriage, then your comparison to Abraham isn't accurate.

Nope, please enlighten me where God told Abraham and the others they were heinous sinners?

That's true and there is nothing saying that they did wrong. God did not judge them for practicing plural marriage...

Sorry, if you have not condemned JS, I apologize...

My comparison involves the new and everlasting covenant... if you are interested I will post you the source...

 

[Richard7]

Yes, and polygamy is a sin.
It always has been, and always will be.



There is NO SUCH THING as "eternal marriage".

Genesis 2:21–24
Old Testament

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


To me and many others this shows that they were to become on flesh... united as one forever...
Cleve to: to stay very close to (someone)

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

All of this suggest that it was meant to be, one wife and one husband together as one flesh and united by marriage.... nothing indicates otherwise.

Marriage ENDS at death:

Rom. 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

1Cor. 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

this is the Mosaic Law... they did not practice the higher law or celestial law, because they were a wicked and rebellious nation...

 

[Richard7]

So it's impossible to determine that any self-proclaimed "prophet" was a false prophet?
So you accept Rev. Moon as a "prophet"?
And you accept Mary Baker Eddy as a "prophet"?
And you accept Warren Jeffs as a "prophet"?

Which one of those were in the Cannon of Scripture? You have the book of Joseph and we have both the bible and Book of Mormon ( Ephram).


Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

 

[shnarkle]

You gave only one excuse for your denial of it being lawful...

I gave on example. I also asked you to provide your biblical reference for this prescriptive law. We're still waiting.

what do you do with the rest of the Patriarchs that practiced plural marriage.

Just because someone practices something, it doesn't then follow that it carries the force of law.

.did they have to listen to their wives before they committed to plural marriage.....

I never said they did. I just answered the question that was asked. Are you ever going to support your position with any evidence?

I think that answers your question

It doesn't come close to answering it. It's nothing but pure conjecture.

 

[shnarkle]

Nope,

Yep. That's how you prove your point. Until you can provide one shred of evidence, you are just making baseless claims. You claim there's a law. Show us this law.

That's true and there is nothing saying that they did wrong. God did not judge them for practicing plural marriage...

God doesn't judge anyone until after they're dead. Try again.

Sorry, if you have not condemned JS, I apologize...

My comparison involves the new and everlasting covenant...

Beside the point. Deflect much?

if you are interested I will post you the source...

This one?: " For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matt. 22:30

 

[dberrie2020]

Just because someone practices something, it doesn't then follow that it carries the force of law.

While I wouldn't disagree with that--there is the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It would be hard for me to believe marriage as a principle of God, and instituted by Him--and then deny it has eternal roots.

 

[shnarkle]

While I wouldn't disagree with that--there is the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It would be hard for me to believe marriage as a principle of God, and instituted by Him--and then deny it has eternal roots.

If we grant this principle you seem to think makes so much sense, then we can safely conclude that the rest of God's laws are also still in force, no? So does Joseph Smith uphold the dietary laws? How does this all fit in with adultery? In other words, we have Jesus pointing out that if a woman is divorced, remarriage is tantamount to adultery. Then there's always the Sabbath which most Christians have no problem profaning. Last time I checked, Mormons weren't interested in keeping the Sabbath either.

Cherry pick much?

 

[dberrie2020]

If we grant this principle you seem to think makes so much sense, then we can safely conclude that the rest of God's laws are also still in force, no? So does Joseph Smith uphold the dietary laws?

Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

How does this all fit in with adultery? In other words, we have Jesus pointing out that if a woman is divorced, remarriage is tantamount to adultery. Then there's always the Sabbath which most Christians have no problem profaning. Last time I checked, Mormons weren't interested in keeping the Sabbath either.

Cherry pick much?

Just a note here--the testimony of God is that He extended His grace to Abraham because he kept His commandments. Period.

Abraham lived under the gospel--before the Mosaic Law was added. The same gospel which the NT writers testified God's grace was connected to keeping the commandments:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Richard7]

I gave on example. I also asked you to provide your biblical reference for this prescriptive law. We're still waiting.

You gave one example, one that you have to admit is pure speculation and without any witness or scripture to back up your speculative and misinformed claim... chuckle.

Just because someone practices something, it doesn't then follow that it carries the force of law.

Sometimes common sense , sensibleness and historical actual events should be you first inclination that something is going on that the Bible is quiet about... Where did the scriptures indicate God was displeased with Abraham, the future father of many nations... hmm

I never said they did. I just answered the question that was asked. Are you ever going to support your position with any evidence?

Historical evidence showed that plural marriage was being practices and their was no condemnation from God... where is your evidence that God was displeased or dissatisfied with Abraham, the fact is he was very pleased with Abraham and made him a great Biblical Patriarch...

It doesn't come close to answering it. It's nothing but pure conjecture.

And postulation on your part proves what...a very simplistic assumption that the wife of Abraham made him take another wife... so throw agency under the bus... hmmm

 

[Richard7]

Yep. That's how you prove your point. Until you can provide one shred of evidence, you are just making baseless claims. You claim there's a law. Show us this law.

Its not up to me to prove that modern day scripture and a total restoration has taken place... you are left with proving that the Book of Mormon and other scripture is a huge fraud... good luck!

God doesn't judge anyone until after they're dead. Try again.

But he does bless the righteous and Abraham was judged of God to be worthy of such blessings... back at you dude.

Beside the point. Deflect much?

This one?: " For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matt. 22:30

That is true... and your speaking of those who are resurrected a gift to all from Christ... we practice the sealing powers of the Priesthood to unite couples in marriage... you are talking of a future event and we are sharing our doctrine on the reality of Celestial Marriage in Heaven...

 

[Richard7]

While I wouldn't disagree with that--there is the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It would be hard for me to believe marriage as a principle of God, and instituted by Him--and then deny it has eternal roots.

Love that: Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Kept his commandments... thou shalt not commit adultery .... how could he be practicing plural marriage and still be considered a keeper of my commandments.... excellent...

 

[shnarkle]

Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

False. Abraham lived 400 years prior to God's law being codified by Moses.

Abraham lived under the gospel--before the Mosaic Law was added.

The Mosaic law was not added. God' s law was codified by Moses.

The same gospel which the NT writers testified God's grace was connected to keeping the commandments:

Agreed, and God's commandments are eternal. They are evident throughout scripture from Adam to Revelation. If Abraham kept the commandments, then he kept the dietary laws just like Noah did prior to the flood. if he kept the commandments, then he must have kept the Sabbath as well.

Again, to cherry pick something Abraham does (as opposed to what is prescribed to Abraham) doesn't prove anything other than you're cherry picking. Abraham waited until he was quite old to be circumcised, do you wait until you're quite old to be circumcised? Abraham threw out Hagar and his own son. Do you do that as well?

You have yet to present any arguments supporting your view that descriptive accounts in the bible hold the same weight as prescriptive accounts.

 

[shnarkle]

Methinks next time you should use the word speculate that such and such are true... hmmm

I stand corrected. I wasn't aware that Mormons kept the Sabbath. When did they start keeping the Sabbath? Is this a recent change?

 

[shnarkle]

You gave one example, one that you have to admit is pure speculation

Please document your claim. Where did you get this notion from?

and without any witness or scripture to back up your speculative and misinformed claim... chuckle.

Where are you getting this claim from? Are you using a different bible?

Sometimes common sense , sensibleness and historical actual events should be you first inclination that something is going on that the Bible is quiet about... Where did the scriptures indicate God was displeased with Abraham, the future father of many nations... hmm

I see no place where God is displeased with Abraham throwing Hagar and his son out to fend for themselves. I didn't know Mormons thought this was a great idea as well.

Historical evidence showed that plural marriage was being practices and their was no condemnation from God...

Perhaps it was necessary. Nowadays, more women are graduating from college and don't need a man around. More men are out of work, and in need of a sugar momma so I can see how this may be a necessity once again for some men.

where is your evidence that God was displeased or dissatisfied with Abraham, the fact is he was very pleased with Abraham and made him a great Biblical Patriarch...

You're still deflecting. Obviously, you have no intention of defending your position. whatever.

And postulation on your part proves what...a very simplistic assumption that the wife of Abraham made him take another wife...

The bible explicitly points out that it was her idea. Again, you're cherry picking. You take one description in the text and conclude this is acceptable, but when it comes to the description I supply you with, you come up with this nonsense which can just as easily be applied to your claims.

 

[shnarkle]

Its not up to me to prove that modern day scripture and a total restoration has taken place...

More deflection. Strawman argument. You've conceded the point. Nuff said.

you are left with proving that the Book of Mormon... is a huge fraud... good luck!

That ship sailed a long time ago. Moreover, I only really have to prove you're a fraud which isn't difficult at all given that you are incapable of defending your own faith. The simplest questions are repeatedly avoided. No luck required.

But he does bless the righteous and Abraham was judged of God to be worthy of such blessings... back at you dude.

The word is "imputed" which means: "represent as being done, caused, or possessed by someone; "

By definition, a representation is not what it represents. Q.E.D.

That is true...

Yep.

 

[Richard7]

I stand corrected. I wasn't aware that Mormons kept the Sabbath. When did they start keeping the Sabbath? Is this a recent change?

Do the research, I can't and I won't be your guru of somethings so ridiculously and absurdly asked...

 

[Richard7]

The bible explicitly points out that it was her idea. Again, you're cherry picking. You take one description in the text and conclude this is acceptable, but when it comes to the description I supply you with, you come up with this nonsense which can just as easily be applied to your claims.

Chuckle, I asked and you kept quiet when asked if all the other old Testament Patriarchs asked their wives... and your speculation about them is what? are you going to say that the Bible says they first asked their wives, or that their wives made them do it... whoops... nice try. Methinks your reaching and stretching for a certain pattern... its not there.

 

[Richard7]

That ship sailed a long time ago. Moreover, I only really have to prove you're a fraud which isn't difficult at all given that you are incapable of defending your own faith. The simplest questions are repeatedly avoided. No luck required.

Yep, that is what I thought... the ship has sailed.. you have no answer.
Chuckle, I don't need to fortify with defensive proof.... I cannot convert anyone, my calling is to show how one can find truth for themselves..
the conversion comes from the witness of the HG. The visionless are immoveable for lack of Faith in believing God still gives us personal revelation if only we will ask...