according to the saints, very very few make it to Heaven

stjerome5

Active member
This is what the canonized saints say, that hardly anyone gets into Heaven

there is St Bernard
St Augustine
St Bellarmine

St Jerome

and others..

And they were all Catholic, so there's that...

How do they know?

Well, St Bernard and St Leonard of Port Maurice... interesting stories there...
 

cjab

Well-known member
This is what the canonized saints say, that hardly anyone gets into Heaven

there is St Bernard
St Augustine
St Bellarmine

St Jerome

and others..

And they were all Catholic, so there's that...

How do they know?

Well, St Bernard and St Leonard of Port Maurice... interesting stories there...
What did they actually say? Can you provide references?
 

puddleglum

Well-known member
Jesus himself said that few find the way to life, so it doesn't make any difference what the saints said.

Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matt. 7:13,14 ESV
 

stjerome5

Active member
Jesus himself said that few find the way to life, so it doesn't make any difference what the saints said.

Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matt. 7:13,14 ESV
yeh, with protestants, even when Catholics, saints or otherwise, agree w/ Jesus... they are still nasty, Hell-bound fools..

really bizarre.
 

Joseph

New Member
I believe what you are referring to is found in Revelations 20

The Judgment of the Dead​

Revelations 20:11-12 (NIV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

(emphasis mine)


If I am not misinterpreting this verse, it is stating that the book of life is used as a singular term. "Another book." While the first opened were plural (books).

I can be wrong but it is my personal belief that more of the world, including Christians, are in the plural books. Only a few names are written in the book of life.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
yeh, with protestants, even when Catholics, saints or otherwise, agree w/ Jesus... they are still nasty, Hell-bound fools..

really bizarre.
This is beside the point that puddles :ROFLMAO: was making.

The point being made is that we ( being Christians) go to the Scriptures first. rc's like yourself could not care any less about the Scriptures or what Jesus says. That you found the correct answer is just an accident or substance of the topic being discussed.
 

puddleglum

Well-known member
If I am not misinterpreting this verse, it is stating that the book of life is used as a singular term. "Another book." While the first opened were plural (books).

I can be wrong but it is my personal belief that more of the world, including Christians, are in the plural books. Only a few names are written in the book of life.

God freely offers salvation to those who will receive it by faith and not depend on their works. The book of life is a list of those who have accepted his offer. They are the only ones who escape being condemned to the lake of fire.

The other books are a record of what the people have done. All who have done good works will be rewarded for them whether they are saved or lost. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul describes the judgment of the believers works. Those whose works pass the test will be rewarded. The rewards are in addition to their salvation. But what of those whose works fail the test? Verse 14 says, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Evidently the same principle applies to the lost. Those who have done good will be punished less severely than those who have not.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This is what the canonized saints say, that hardly anyone gets into Heaven

there is St Bernard
St Augustine
St Bellarmine

St Jerome

and others..

And they were all Catholic, so there's that...

How do they know?

Well, St Bernard and St Leonard of Port Maurice... interesting stories there...
Ok.... I'll byte!

Why would you base your beliefs on the catholic ideas of faith in Jesus?

Jesus is the one who said only a few will enter the Kingdom of God. Matthew 7.

He said in Matthew 5:18 that we had to have a righteousness that exceeds the scribes and pharisees.

According to John 3:3-5, unless we're born again, we cannot enter or see God's Kingdom.

According to Matthew 18:3, unless we become as a little child, we shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So, it's not possible to enter God's Kingdom just being a religious person. We actually must be genuinely righteous, born spiritually, and have childlike faith in Jesus.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why not? Are our personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture any better than the Catholic Church?
Well, not if you're not spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God

Jesus said in John 14:26, and 16:12-15

Joh 14:26 WEB But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.

Joh 16:12-15 WEB 12 “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now. 13 However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine, and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

Paul picks this idea up and develops it further in 1 Corinthians 2,

1Co 2:4-16 WEB 4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown, yet a wisdom not of this world nor of the rulers of this world who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s Spirit. 12 But we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. 14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.

You do bring an important point to bear.

I know Catholics believe that the new birth occurs when they are baptized, as babies.

Peter describes the new birth as taking place when we believe the Gospel of Jesus.

1Pe 1:23 WEB having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever.

Ezekiel gives us an incredible description of the new birth.

Eze 36:25-27 WEB 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness, and from all your idols. 26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes. You will keep my ordinances and do them.

Paul further picks up on this idea in Romans 8:3-9, and Titus 3:5.

So.... here's my question for you.

Based on these passages, are you spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Have you become born again, as Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3?
Because if not, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Well, not if you're not spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God
How would that work for someone new to Christianity in AD 42?
You do bring an important point to bear.
(y)
I know Catholics believe that the new birth occurs when they are baptized, as babies.
Indeed
So.... here's my question for you.

Based on these passages, are you spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
That would be basing a reply on part of the equation, no? Even some non-Catholic ecclesial communities believe in infant baptism as entering into God's church.
Have you become born again, as Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3?
There is that 'interpretation' again.... who has the authority to interpret scripture properly? 🤔
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How would that work for someone new to Christianity in AD 42?
Same way as it worked on the day of Pentecost, 47 days after Jesus rose from the dead, and today. It'll continue until the end.

(y)

Indeed

That would be basing a reply on part of the equation, no? Even some non-Catholic ecclesial communities believe in infant baptism as entering into God's church.
I'm not saying that other churches don't baptize babies.

The problem is that each and every single human being must be able to choose Jesus for themselves.
Being thrown into a bath as an infant, and having a phrase repeated over them doesn't make them born again. Anymore than being a drug dealer makes them a pharmacist
It just means that their parents invited a priest to get them wet, and say a prayer over them.
I was raised in the Methodist church. My parents had me dedicated to God as a baby (after I started following Jesus, my mom was irritated by my conversion so I asked her). I didn't know God growing up. I knew ABOUT Him.

Following Jesus is an adoption relationship between the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and us, as individuals.
God becomes our adoptiveFather, Jesus becomes our adoptive brother, and the Holy Spirit seals, and indwells us.

There is that 'interpretation' again.... who has the authority to interpret scripture properly? 🤔
The Holy Spirit.
Jesus did say that he would teach us everything we need to know.

You're more than welcome to tell me your interpretation of the passages I provided you.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Same way as it worked on the day of Pentecost, 47 days after Jesus rose from the dead, and today. It'll continue until the end.
I was referring to 👇
regenerated by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God

The problem is that each and every single human being must be able to choose Jesus for themselves.
Wouldn't that be a personal interpretation as well? [several denominations would not agree with you]
Being thrown into a bath as an infant, and having a phrase repeated over them doesn't make them born again.
Imagine being born a Jew and eight days later -- 'snip' ... now a part of the covenant family
Following Jesus is an adoption relationship between the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and us, as individuals.
I agree... baptism for a Catholic is only the first step in the relationship
The Holy Spirit.
Jesus did say that he would teach us everything we need to know.
That would bring us back to my original question ... 👇
Are our personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture any better than the Catholic Church?
Imagine the following: A round table with pastors from the following churches.... Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Non-denominational, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc.

Each pastor has his/her Bible in front of them.... all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit -- all disagree on multiple theological thoughts. We know the Holy Spirit does not teach error though. 🤔

I do appreciate the kind discourse!!! :)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I was referring to 👇
I understood that.
Growing up in a church, which less than 150 years previously was a dyed-in-the-wool Jesus "freak" community of Jesus followers, who by the time I was a child had become more like the church of Sardis, in Revelation:
A name that was alive, but was in fact dead.
I was taught the stories of the bible. I wasn't taught Jesus beyond that he was a guy who lived, died, rose again and would save the world.
I don't recall hearing that I personally needed saving, until I became a teenager.

By the time I did, it was completely different from what I thought it would be.

I actually experienced God, and Jesus in my life.



Wouldn't that be a personal interpretation as well? [several denominations would not agree with you]
Is it?
Does it counter the interpretations of Jesus followers for the past nearly 2 millennia?

Show me your interpretation.

Imagine being born a Jew and eight days later -- 'snip' ... now a part of the covenant family
Rather curious that Nicodemus was snipped, apparently the most educated man in Israel and yet he missed the importance of the new birth. An idea that David, Samuel, Moses, Joshua, Abraham, Isaiah, and all the other prophets and YHVH followers understood.
So profound was his missing its importance that Jesus asked them-- are you not the Teacher in Israel, and you don't know these things? If I explain to you earthly things and you don't understand, how will you understand heavenly things?

He then takes it really personal in his subsequent comments.

Joh 3:10-21 WEB 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and don’t understand these things? 11 Most certainly I tell you, we speak that which we know, and testify of that which we have seen, and you don’t receive our witness. 12 If I told you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”


An idea comes to mind here.
Jesus obeyed the scriptures because he is YHVH's Messiah.

We who follow Jesus are to obey the scriptures because we are following Jesus.

We read in Matthew 7, that those who keep his teachings are like wise men who build their lives on a solid rock foundation.
Those who don't keep his teachings are like foolish people who build their lives on a sandy, shifting foundation.

James tells us in the first chapter of his letter that we're to be doers of the word so we can live in liberty.

Paul tells us in Galatians 5 that liberty is found in living a life of love, and in Romans 7-8, by walking in the Spirit and not after the law, something we further see in 2 Corinthians 3.



I agree... baptism for a Catholic is only the first step in the relationship
And I attended a church that has a lot of ex-Catholics-- my wife included, who never actually met Jesus.
She was educated in parochial school.
I have a catholic cousin who is a priest, he was educated in Rome/Vatican, at the law college, never actually met Jesus.

So obviously baptism isn't enough to save.
Little difference between that and circumcision. Paul had plenty to say about this.

That would bring us back to my original question ... 👇

Imagine the following: A round table with pastors from the following churches.... Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Non-denominational, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc.

Each pastor has his/her Bible in front of them.... all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit -- all disagree on multiple theological thoughts. We know the Holy Spirit does not teach error though. 🤔
Indeed....
The question then becomes a question of what does Proverbs say about such things?

There is wisdom in the multitude of counselors.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he shall direct your path.

Commit your thoughts to the Lird, and your works will be established.
In psalm 34, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit yourself to him and he will bring it to pass.

The question I see this being is-- is YHVH capable of ensuring that you actually get it? Or, has he, as stated by Time magazine in the 60's, died, and no longer exists?

If YHVH is not capable of ensuring that we understand what he's saying to us, then he's not much of a god.
And as such, I'm thinking can be disregarded as incapable of handling the people he purportedly created.

The bible makes some serious claims. One of those is that YHVH is quite capable of handling us, and our problems in our lives.

He in fact invites us to bring our troubles to him and talk them through with him. Isaiah 1:18, 41:1, 21. It looks pretty clear that he is not afraid of us in the least, and actually wants to have a sit down talk with us about our lives.

He invites us to call on him in our day of trouble and he will deliver us. Psalm 50:15

The gospel of Jesus is about restoring us to a right relationship with God.
Not God as men see him, but as he's expressed in and through the life of Jesus.

Only through Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit is this possible.

And as you can readily read for yourself, God is inviting you to come and see for yourself.

It's written in Acts 17:11, the people of Berea were more noble than the people in thessalonica in that they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not.

Become a Berean. Learn for yourself whether the catholic church is the only way, of if in fact Jesus is the only way.

My ancestors left the catholic church, as did my wife.
We found a community of people who are learning to follow Jesus and not an institution.

I do appreciate the kind discourse!!! :)
😎😊
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
I actually experienced God, and Jesus in my life.
I do as well.
Does it counter the interpretations of Jesus followers for the past nearly 2 millennia?
whole families were baptized
Rather curious that Nicodemus was snipped, apparently the most educated man in Israel and yet he missed the importance of the new birth. An idea that David, Samuel, Moses, Joshua, Abraham, Isaiah, and all the other prophets and YHVH followers understood.
So profound was his missing its importance that Jesus asked them-- are you not the Teacher in Israel, and you don't know these things? If I explain to you earthly things and you don't understand, how will you understand heavenly things?
Immediately after Jesus’ “born again” discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? “… Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.”
And I attended a church that has a lot of ex-Catholics-- my wife included, who never actually met Jesus. She was educated in parochial school. I have a catholic cousin who is a priest, he was educated in Rome/Vatican, at the law college, never actually met Jesus.
I attended several non-denominational churches with my wife [she was Baptist at the time] and she recently converted to Catholicism. She was a Baptist missionary and decided on her own that the true Church could not have so many differing views as truth.
The gospel of Jesus is about restoring us to a right relationship with God.
AMEN
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I do as well.

whole families were baptized

Immediately after Jesus’ “born again” discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? “… Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.”

I attended several non-denominational churches with my wife [she was Baptist at the time] and she recently converted to Catholicism. She was a Baptist missionary and decided on her own that the true Church could not have so many differing views as truth.

AMEN
Rather interesting that Jesus had 7 different sets of problems with 7 different churches in so small an area of the western and central Turkish region.

Having different views isn't my concern. Having ungodly practices and doctrines are.

In Revelation 2-3, Ephesus was a doctrinally right on church.
They were on the verge of being kicked out by Jesus himself. They only had a couple redeeming qualities.

Smyrna was on the verge of becoming road kill for the believers because of the community in which they lived.

Pergamum was in a seriously bad way. Bad teaching, bad practices.

Thyatira.... she was compared to a prostitute and was leading her own people astray. Even the godly ones were in danger of being led astray.
Ironically, this church has similar practices as the catholic church over the past several hundred years.
Statues, prayer to Mary and the saints. All the things that Martin Luther wrote up on his 95 thesis letter to nail to the door at wittenberg.

Had the catholic church not perverted the gospel of Jesus, there would never have been a reformation in the first place.

It's one thing to seek a single expression of Jesus in the world.
It's another altogether to seek to crush people who seek to know Him outside of the sanctioned church because they weren't allowed to read the bible for themselves.
The history of the catholic church is a vile and hateful thing.
Believers in Jesus were slaughtered like animals, hung on stakes, and burned alive. Tortured, threatened, intimidated, all in the name of a religious belief that purported to be Jesus. Ironically, he actually warned us that this would happen in John 16.

I get that a British King sought to separate himself from the catholic church in order justify his divorce and remarriage, and so started a new church. That was something that he's living with the consequences of.


Church is the bride of Jesus. Not a political entity or institution designed to control the world. People have conflated a theocracy with an ecclesiocracy. A church form of government is not God's government.

I may indeed be frustrated by the divisions, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in an institution where I cannot read the bible and follow Jesus. I didn't come to Jesus to be a religious man. I came to Jesus to actually know him. I failed at religiosity by the time I was 8 years old. Every religious family on my block growing up thought I was a monster. Thankfully, Jesus came to save sinners.

Anglican, Baptists, Lutherans, methodists, reformers, Calvary chapel network, Episcopal, etc..... may indeed be separated from the catholic church, but the need to break away from the catholic church is the Vatican's fault. They clung too tightly to their false teachings. History bears out that reconciliation has been sought afterwards. That was the whole point of the 95 theses. A plea to reconcile. Not with Martin, but reconcile with Jesus.

In my opposition to man-made religious beliefs, as described in Isaiah 29:13, I've found myself wondering why would people who claim to love him work so hard to destroy what he said he loves?

And please don't think for a single heartbeat that I think anyone else is innocent our respective guilt is exactly why Jesus came to save us. I didn't come to him because I liked religion I wanted to get as far away from man made religious beliefs as possible. This is based on what Jesus said, in quoting Isaiah 29.

8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”


Refusal was repeated and sometimes met with the most violent expressions of force. Just like the Jewish people who, across the ages killed the prophets

I've repeatedly told God I'd be happy to become a catholic, if they'd dump everything that makes them catholic and just focus on Jesus and the bible.

Something I know will never happen.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Rather interesting that Jesus had 7 different sets of problems with 7 different churches in so small an area of the western and central Turkish region.
More reason to believe in a hierarchical church.
Statues, prayer to Mary and the saints. All the things that Martin Luther wrote up on his 95 thesis letter to nail to the door at wittenberg.
Following a man [Luther] is dangerous.
Had the catholic church not perverted the gospel of Jesus, there would never have been a reformation in the first place.
It was more a revolt to Christ's Catholic Church.... personal interpretations got in the way.
The history of the catholic church is a vile and hateful thing.
The killings of Catholics in England, Ireland etc. should be included in your remarks.... Calvin as well
Church is the bride of Jesus. Not a political entity or institution designed to control the world.
Christ gave us that Church... it is up to us to be obedient
I may indeed be frustrated by the divisions, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in an institution where I cannot read the bible and follow Jesus.
As a Catholic, I can buy as many Bibles as I want to--and read them.
I came to Jesus to actually know him.
You can't get any closer than the Eucharist.
Anglican, Baptists, Lutherans, methodists, reformers, Calvary chapel network, Episcopal, etc..... may indeed be separated from the catholic church, but the need to break away from the catholic church is the Vatican's fault. They clung too tightly to their false teachings.
Your personal, fallible interpretation has given you this ^^
In my opposition to man-made religious beliefs, as described in Isaiah 29:13, I've found myself wondering why would people who claim to love him work so hard to destroy what he said he loves?
Those that separate themselves from Christ's Catholic Church.
I've repeatedly told God I'd be happy to become a catholic, if they'd dump everything that makes them catholic and just focus on Jesus and the bible.
That is where you have failed... open your heart/mind to what God says and not your personal demands.
Something I know will never happen.
God will not help your unbelief without your willingness to learn.

Blessings!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
More reason to believe in a hierarchical church.
To me it sounds like it's a perfect reason to believe in Jesus and not an institution.

Following a man [Luther] is dangerous.
Following a church is equally dangerous. That you miss that I find disconcerting.

It was more a revolt to Christ's Catholic Church.... personal interpretations got in the way.
Really? Because from what I read in history, there was no Christ in the catholic church of the day.
My mother in law and father in law were catholic. Because my wife and I attended a church which had Saturday evening services, I was able to drive them to church on Sunday morning. Occasionally I'd go in and observe.
I was constantly astonished by all the ritual, and how easily people would completely miss the heart of the gospel.
It saddened me that all those people would attend church and never actually met Jesus.

Exactly like the church I grew up in.

The killings of Catholics in England, Ireland etc. should be included in your remarks.... Calvin as well
Inquisition was primarily a mainland European event.

Christ gave us that Church... it is up to us to be obedient
Exactly! Centuries of disobedience, by incorporating false teachers, politically motivated priests, popes, etc...
To many, the 7 churches in Revelation are not JUST a single period in history. It's a picture of the church throughout history.
A prophetic statement about how the church is viewed by Jesus down through the ages.

As a Catholic, I can buy as many Bibles as I want to--and read them.
I have a bible app on my phone because my eyes are old enough now that paper copies can't make a large enough font size for me to easily read.

I've found that the app maker has been able to provide hundreds of different languages, interlinear, multiple translations, etc...
I have well over 100 different translations on my phone.
When I read a verse that I have a problem with, I put it into compare mode, and read through the list.
Because of my studies in math and physics I learned the Greek alphabet. Learning to read greek is indeed a different issue, but being able to pronounce the words and then work through my several different interlinear translations has made it a lot clearer when I find myself stuck.
You can't get any closer than the Eucharist.
I disagree.
I think that the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, through reading, praying, and koinonia with others who are following Jesus, as well as the fellowship of Jesus in suffering for the sake of the gospel (Philippians 3:8-14), makes it even closer.
The eucharist is a matter of remembering what he achieved on our behalf.
According to Matthew, he tells is-- wherever 2 or more are gathered in my name, I am in their midst.
Your personal, fallible interpretation has given you this ^^
So, my reading the bible, my reading history, has resulted in the history of the church?


Those that separate themselves from Christ's Catholic Church.
Yeah. I had a family member who believe that I can't possibly be a follower of Jesus because I'm not a catholic.
It's curious that they're the ones who are drunks, bitter, and my wife and I are praying for them.

My catholic cousin who was educated at the Vatican in church law.... at the time we were introduced I noticed he had a small collection of liquor bottles. The standard stuff... bourbon, whiskey, etc..

I found myself wondering why. I'd thought that as a priest,he'd be a lot closer to Jesus and not have any need, let alone desire for such things.


That is where you have failed... open your heart/mind to what God says and not your personal demands.
I have. For 44+ years. I've been reading the bible, praying, seeking God, and the truth.
Just how open do I need to be?
There comes a point where being too open results in pouring out what's left of my mind, and then anything can be accepted.

I.e., once you have rejected the truth, anything can be believed.




God will not help your unbelief without your willingness to learn.
Ironically, the bible gives us what we need to know him.

Blessings!
As you follow Jesus, and not people, you too.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
To me it sounds like it's a perfect reason to believe in Jesus and not an institution.
unless Christ gave us that institution
Following a church is equally dangerous.
same answer as above
My mother in law and father in law were catholic. Because my wife and I attended a church which had Saturday evening services, I was able to drive them to church on Sunday morning. Occasionally I'd go in and observe.
The Mass is beautiful!
It saddened me that all those people would attend church and never actually met Jesus.
They received Christ [body, blood, soul, and divinity]
I disagree.
If you found out that the Eucharist is real, you might change that answer
So, my reading the bible, my reading history, has resulted in the history of the church?
no, a personal fallible interpretation is dangerous .... what is a train without tracks?, a river without banks?
Yeah. I had a family member who believe that I can't possibly be a follower of Jesus because I'm not a catholic.
That family member should remember this: imperfect communion
My catholic cousin who was educated at the Vatican in church law.... at the time we were introduced I noticed he had a small collection of liquor bottles. The standard stuff... bourbon, whiskey, etc..
Christ's first miracle comes to mind
For 44+ years. I've been reading the bible, praying, seeking God, and the truth.
Just how open do I need to be?
Think about your journey this way.... have you changed your mind throughout the 44 plus years of reading the bible?
once you have rejected the truth, anything can be believed.
The question remains... how do we know when we actually have the truth?
Ironically, the bible gives us what we need to know him.
not if you were an early Christian in AD 42
 
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