Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

Sethproton

Well-known member
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.

Yep

John 7:38-39 (NASB77)
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Galatians 3:2 (NASB77)
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (NASB77)
5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14 (NASB77)
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Would you look at that, the Holy Spirit witnesses before he indwells. :cool:

I wonder why and how he would do that if the "gracious message" and our "good nature" is sufficient.

I'll never understand why people would passionately argue against grace, that the Holy Spirit does no work before conversion. What's even the motive to deny the need for grace? It only seems diabolical.

How could the Pharisees even "resist" the Holy Spirit if all they needed was a message, and the Holy Spirit couldn't work in them. They would instead be resisting the message and their innately good nature.

Prevenient grace is everywhere you look, even in the proof texts of those who seem to deny it.

For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13
 

Johan

Well-known member
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.
This is one of those verses that could be read in two different ways. It could also be taken to mean that those who obey Him have that in common that they have received His Spirit. Another example of such an ambiguous verse is:

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead... (1 Pet. 4:6)

This verse could be understood as saying that the Gospel has been preached to the dead or that the Gospel has been preached to those who are now dead (but were alive when they heard the Gospel).

Now, if you believe that Acts 5:32 is saying that the Spirit was given (ἔδωκεν, aorist tense) to those who responded to Him, then the tense of "obey" (πειθαρχοῦσιν, a present-tense participle) is not congruous with that interpretation.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.
Obedience is NOT following the law? Who knew
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.
When we see Verses that say we can believe, we should Presume that Grace has first appeared to make it's 'real' difference in our Lives. After Grace? Sure we can believe. Not Presuming Grace Prevened your Faith, is Pelagianism; and is salvation by your very own Prevenient faith...

This is THE answer to the age-old debate; but it seems no one really cares...
 
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Simpletruther

Well-known member
Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him

Here is another of the many verses that teach a man must respond before the Spirit indwells him.
Notice what comes first: obedience. Then the Spirit is given,
What kind of obedience? Not following the law.
Faith, God gives the Spirit to a man who obeys Him and entrusts himself to Jesus.
Has given (past tense) obeys (present tense)
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This is one of those verses that could be read in two different ways. It could also be taken to mean that those who obey Him have that in common that they have received His Spirit. Another example of such an ambiguous verse is:

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead... (1 Pet. 4:6)

This verse could be understood as saying that the Gospel has been preached to the dead or that the Gospel has been preached to those who are now dead (but were alive when they heard the Gospel).

Now, if you believe that Acts 5:32 is saying that the Spirit was given (ἔδωκεν, aorist tense) to those who responded to Him, then the tense of "obey" (πειθαρχοῦσιν, a present-tense participle) is not congruous with that interpretation.
I wonder at your characterization of the verse being ambiguous. My guess is what you mean is that it does not fit with your doctrine.
The phrase "given to those who obey" seems straightforward, I would be interested in how you are looking at the words in the verse and coming up with your possible interpretation, I don't see it in the words.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I wonder at your characterization of the verse being ambiguous. My guess is what you mean is that it does not fit with your doctrine.
The phrase "given to those who obey" seems straightforward, I would be interested in how you are looking at the words in the verse and coming up with your possible interpretation, I don't see it in the words.
Except you have no idea what the Greek means hence your comments above. Try listening to someone who knows for once. But if history is repeats itself( it will no doubt) you will not listen to those on CARM who know Greek and argue with them because of your "stronghold" and obsession over Calvinism.

BTW- why do you go to a CALVINIST church to worship God and fellowship with believers when they believe EXACTLY like we do on this board ?

Do you treat them like you do us ? If not why not ?
 

Johan

Well-known member
I wonder at your characterization of the verse being ambiguous. My guess is what you mean is that it does not fit with your doctrine.
The phrase "given to those who obey" seems straightforward, I would be interested in how you are looking at the words in the verse and coming up with your possible interpretation, I don't see it in the words.
The phrase "those who obey" is straightforward. But you do not seem to pay enough attention to the tenses involved. God gave (past tense) His Spirit to those who now are obedient (present tense). So if anything, this verse supports rather than contradicts Calvinist doctrine.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Has given (past tense) obeys (present tense)
Faith still precedes the giving of the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:2 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV)
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
When we see Verses that say we can believe, we should Presume that Grace has first appeared to make it's 'real' difference in our Lives. After Grace? Sure we can believe. Not Presuming Grace Prevened your Faith, is Pelagianism; and is salvation by your very own Prevenient faith...

This is THE answer to the age-old debate; but it seems no one really cares...
Grace is not the issue in this case. The Holy Spirit being given is the issue. regeneration. It does not come until we do our part.
Sure, by God's grace we understand what God has done and what He wants, but this verse teaches obedience before the indwelling.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
The phrase "those who obey" is straightforward. But you do not seem to pay enough attention to the tenses involved. God gave (past tense) His Spirit to those who now are obedient (present tense). So if anything, this verse supports rather than contradicts Calvinist doctrine.
I don't know Greek, maybe you do, But I expect that the translators of the NASB do understand Greek and the English they chose, I do understand, as I am fluent in English.
The translators render it: God has given to those who obey
Calvinist change it to: God has given to those who will obey
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Faith still precedes the giving of the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:2 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV)
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Would you say then that the deciples were not spiritually alive until until after pentecost? Or is not more likely that the Spirit giving and new birth are different events?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Would you say then that the deciples were not spiritually alive until until after pentecost? Or is not more likely that the Spirit giving and new birth are different events?
I would say they received the Spirit before Pentecost

John 20:22 (KJV)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

at least a temporary measure
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
I wonder at your characterization of the verse being ambiguous. My guess is what you mean is that it does not fit with your doctrine.
The phrase "given to those who obey" seems straightforward, I would be interested in how you are looking at the words in the verse and coming up with your possible interpretation, I don't see it in the words.

I would say they received the Spirit before Pentecost

John 20:22 (KJV)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

at least a temporary measure
According to the john 7 you used to support your claim they didn't get the spirit till after Jesus glorification.
 
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