Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

zerinus

Well-known member
But meritorious means "deserving of honor or esteem" (Merriam-Webster's) and we do not deserve honor for believing or for being humble. Salvation is never deserved, nor are any of the other good gifts of God. To be humble before God means exactly that, to concede that we are sinful and undeserving, whereas He is gracious and good.
But still, God “resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble”. Like it or not, it says what it says, and means what it says. You can’t get away from that. James goes even further. He says:

James 4:

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


He describes a meritorious act. And he tells you exactly how to do it to get the desired result. It describes something that is considered meritorious in the sight of God, and consequently moves him to act in a certain way. You can’t get away from that.
 

Johan

Well-known member
But still, God “resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble”. Like it or not, it says what it says, and means what it says. You can’t get away from that. James goes even further. He says:

James 4:

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


He describes a meritorious act. And he tells you exactly how to do it to get the desired result. It describes something that is considered meritorious in the sight of God, and consequently moves him to act in a certain way. You can’t get away from that.
He says what he says, but it still does not mean that humbleness is meritorious, any more than prayer is meritorious (which also moves God to act in a certain way). If you do not accept the definition found in Merriam-Webster's, here is the corresponding one at dictionary.com: "deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy." Again, we do not deserve praise, reward, etc., for being humble. By being humble, we come to God with empty hands and a concession that we are undeserving of the grace that He bestows on us.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
He says what he says, but it still does not mean that humbleness is meritorious, any more than prayer is meritorious (which also moves God to act in a certain way). If you do not accept the definition found in Merriam-Webster's, here is the corresponding one at dictionary.com: "deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy." Again, we do not deserve praise, reward, etc., for being humble. By being humble, we come to God with empty hands and a concession that we are undeserving of the grace that He bestows on us.
Agreed. Humility is not meritorious nor does faith merit salvation

It is by grace not merit we are saved
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Well, if you truly think that this example sentence is analogous to Acts 5:32, it goes to show that you do not merely hold an anti-Calvinist but an anti-Evangelical position. Salvation is by grace and not by works. The Spirit is not given as a reward but as a token of His salvific promise.

And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Rom. 11:6)

I used exactly the same verb tenses as in Acts 5:32. So you finally concede that this verse is by itself ambiguous and that we need other verses to fully understand it. I call that progress.

Which verse is saying that the Spirit was given to them because they were waiting for Him? The obedience of which Peter speaks in 5:32 is rather in its context referring back to 5:27–29:

The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood." Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings!"

Peter was not exactly a shining example of an obedient person pre the resurrection of Christ, given that he denied his Master thrice.
I thought it was telling that your first argument above was that you cannot see the verse as I do because it conflicts with your doctrine. You told me doctrinally why the verse could not mean what i said. That's one of are problems, for all of us. We read scripture with our particular doctrinal glasses on.
As a note:
You said you used the same sentence structure.
You wrote: "God has given life to all who are living."
The structure was God has given (Jesus) to those who obey Him

Have to go to church, will come back to this in a few hours.

You use a participle "living", as opposed to a verb "obey"
 

zerinus

Well-known member
He says what he says, but it still does not mean that humbleness is meritorious, any more than prayer is meritorious (which also moves God to act in a certain way). If you do not accept the definition found in Merriam-Webster's, here is the corresponding one at dictionary.com: "deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy." Again, we do not deserve praise, reward, etc., for being humble. By being humble, we come to God with empty hands and a concession that we are undeserving of the grace that He bestows on us.
Well, it is not what the scripture itself says. Being humble is considered meritorious by God, and in the sight of God, not by man; which motivates God to act in a certain way in response to it. You don’t attribute merit to yourself by being humble, God does. You are confusing those two things together. You mentioned prayer. The same principle applies to prayer:

James 5:

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


That suggests something meritorious in the sight of God, not by man, which motivates God to act in a certain way. You can’t get away from that. Like it or not, that is what the scripture actually says.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I guess you don't see what the Spirit does as grace. I think I can make a Biblical case ANY work of the Holy Spirit is grace.



This just seems humanistic and secular almost, like denying any kind of spiritual aspect to knowledge.

You would then I guess see phrases like "opening the eyes of the heart" or "the natural man does not receive" as meaning that the natural eyes and natural man really do see/receive. And then claim the Bible never says that by redefining the terms. It really almost feels... supernaturally inconsistent to me. Like a blindness.



Does natural information to the natural mind lead us into all truth or the Spirit? You seem inconsistent to me here.



You says things that contradict each other and you change the most face value way to read the Bible and make it say almost the opposite.

This is things you criticize Calvinists for doing, and you don't even seem to realize you're doing the same thing. It's strange to me.
What seems to be difficult to articulate is that we have one mind. One intellect. God can hide the truth from our intellect or He can show it to us.
I would imagine you know how the word "mystery" is used in the Bible. It means a truth that God has kept hidden. One such mystery is that God would also save gentiles. Another was that Christ would indwell believers.
When it says they were mysteries it does not mean they were complex or mysterious hard to fathom ideas, just that God had not yet revealed them. Once revealed they can be understood by the natural intellect.
There are deeper truths, truths that baby Christians don't swallow well, but those have to do with dying to self and sacrificing your life for others. They can be intellectually grasped by anyone, but it takes maturity to trust God and act on them.
I don't see that the Bible gives us a different intellect, a saved intellect, though we have the mind of Christ and therefore access to truth.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Well, it is not what the scripture itself says. Being humble is considered meritorious by God, and in the sight of God, not by man; which motivates God to act in a certain way in response to it. You don’t attribute merit to yourself by being humble, God does. You are confusing those two things together. You mentioned prayer. The same principle applies to prayer:

James 5:

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


That suggests something meritorious in the sight of God, not by man, which motivates God to act in a certain way. You can’t get away from that. Like it or not, that is what the scripture actually says.
The Bible says that faith is reckoned as righteousness. That does not mean that faith is a righteous act, but that in God's accounting book, your faith is tallied as if it is righteousness.
 
G

guest1

Guest
The Bible says that faith is reckoned as righteousness. That does not mean that faith is a righteous act, but that in God's accounting book, your faith is tallied as if it is righteousness.
what is gods accounting book ?

what verse or idea does that come from in the bible ?
 
G

guest1

Guest
I think he's using it metaphorically here, generally it's from the Greek word in the verse "reckoned" as righteousness, this word was actually used of ledgers at the time. It is derivative of logos, logizomai. The NKJV even uses "accounted" and other versions use "credited."

Louw-Nida has:

57.227 logi,zomai: to keep records of commercial accounts, involving both debits and credits - 'to put into one's account, to charge one's account, to regard as an account.' tw|/ de. evrgazome,nw| o` misqo.j ouv logi,zetai kata. ca,rin avlla. kata. ovfei,lhma 'to a person who has worked, the wage is not regarded (or 'not credited to his account') as a gift but as a debt to be paid' (or 'a debt owed to him') Ro 4.4.

We can certainly derive from many verses that God does keep track of both good and bad things and uses the picture of keeping a record.
Thanks for the response !
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I think he's using it metaphorically here, generally it's from the Greek word in the verse "reckoned" as righteousness, this word was actually used of ledgers at the time. It is derivative of logos, logizomai. The NKJV even uses "accounted" and other versions use "credited."

Louw-Nida has:

57.227 logi,zomai: to keep records of commercial accounts, involving both debits and credits - 'to put into one's account, to charge one's account, to regard as an account.' tw|/ de. evrgazome,nw| o` misqo.j ouv logi,zetai kata. ca,rin avlla. kata. ovfei,lhma 'to a person who has worked, the wage is not regarded (or 'not credited to his account') as a gift but as a debt to be paid' (or 'a debt owed to him') Ro 4.4.

We can certainly derive from many verses that God does keep track of both good and bad things and uses the picture of keeping a record.
The poster knows that.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
What seems to be difficult to articulate is that we have one mind. One intellect. God can hide the truth from our intellect or He can show it to us.
I would imagine you know how the word "mystery" is used in the Bible. It means a truth that God has kept hidden. One such mystery is that God would also save gentiles. Another was that Christ would indwell believers.
When it says they were mysteries it does not mean they were complex or mysterious hard to fathom ideas, just that God had not yet revealed them. Once revealed they can be understood by the natural intellect.
There are deeper truths, truths that baby Christians don't swallow well, but those have to do with dying to self and sacrificing your life for others. They can be intellectually grasped by anyone, but it takes maturity to trust God and act on them.
I don't see that the Bible gives us a different intellect, a saved intellect, though we have the mind of Christ and therefore access to truth.
We do not receive a new mind but a new heart. And the mind operates not just rationally but emotionally (from the heart) The mind of the natural man yes, may be able to comprehend spiritual truth, but he is not able to want it, and often suppresses it and calls it a lie.

The new man doesn't just intellectually comprehend with his mind, he embraces and rejoices and lives the truth. Because he has a new heart.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The Bible says that faith is reckoned as righteousness. That does not mean that faith is a righteous act, but that in God's accounting book, your faith is tallied as if it is righteousness.
The problem with that way of expressing it is that it can reinforce Calvinists and Reformed theologians in their false beliefs that one does not need to repent or keep the commandments of God to be saved, which is entirely heretical and false. Repenting and keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation—and that is not the same as “works”.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
The problem with that way of expressing it is that it can reinforce Calvinists and Reformed theologians in their false beliefs that one does not need to repent or keep the commandments of God to be saved, which is entirely heretical and false. Repenting and keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation—and that is not the same as “works”.
Do you believe they you fall into and then back out of salvation regularly?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
This is more the idea of an ongoing improvement of mind, changing the mind. It's a process an not part of the one time regeneration/new birth with was the context of my comment in a discussion of soteriology.
Your statement is still incorrect in light of Scripture as the renovation of the mind is commenced at the new birth and is ongoing. Note 1 Corinthians 2:16. You stated we do not receive a new mind, that isn't matching up with scripture.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Do you believe they you fall into and then back out of salvation regularly?
The problem with that question is that it presupposes several false beliefs of Calvinism. The first is “instant salvation,” which is not biblical. According to the Bible, nobody is “saved” until they have “endured to the end,” meaning to remain true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. The second is the false idea that it is impossible for man to keep the commandments of God. Run me through the Decalogue, and tell me which one of them is impossible for man to keep. The third is the false idea that once you have sinned, you have lost your chance, and there is no way back except through unconditional grace, which is nothing more than a license to commit sin and get away with it. If we sin, there is a way back. It is called remission of sins through faith, genuine repentance, and keeping the commandments of God.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
The problem with that question is that it presupposes several false beliefs of Calvinism. The first is “instant salvation,” which is not biblical. According to the Bible, nobody is “saved” until they have “endured to the end,” meaning to remain true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. The second is the false idea that it is impossible for man to keep the commandments of God. Run me through the Decalogue, and tell me which one of them is impossible for man to keep. The third is the false idea that once you have sinned, you have lost your chance, and there is no way back except through unconditional grace, which is nothing more than a license to commit sin and get away with it. If we sin, there is a way back. It is called remission of sins through faith, genuine repentance, and keeping the commandments of God.
So you do not consider yourself saved?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
So you do not consider yourself saved?
I have the assurance of salvation through the Atonement of Jesus Christ which is secure. But that does not deprive me of the freedom to apostatize and be damned if I wanted to, which I have no intention of doing.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
I have the assurance of salvation through the Atonement of Jesus Christ which is secure. But that does not deprive me of the freedom to apostatize and be damned if I wanted to, which I have no intention of doing.
So you can loose your salvation then? Can you gain it back or is it too late if you loose it?
 
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