Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

Sethproton

Well-known member
We do not receive a new mind but a new heart. And the mind operates not just rationally but emotionally (from the heart) The mind of the natural man yes, may be able to comprehend spiritual truth, but he is not able to want it, and often suppresses it and calls it a lie.

The new man doesn't just intellectually comprehend with his mind, he embraces and rejoices and lives the truth. Because he has a new heart.
I agree that the Bible speaks of replacing our hearts of stone. I believe it is a metaphor for our attitude and desires and emotions.
I wonder what verses would clearly articulate the idea that the natural mind of man cannot want what God has for us.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
The problem with that way of expressing it is that it can reinforce Calvinists and Reformed theologians in their false beliefs that one does not need to repent or keep the commandments of God to be saved, which is entirely heretical and false. Repenting and keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation—and that is not the same as “works”.
I wonder what you mean by this: keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation
Not sure how you are distinguishing those from works?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I wonder what you mean by this: keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation
Not sure how you are distinguishing those from works?
It is the same distinction that Paul has made. This idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” etc. originates from Paul. It is not found in the writings of any other biblical writers. But in other places in his writings, Paul appears to be saying something different, such as these:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


So what do you think Paul is doing here? Is he contradicting himself? In one place he is all against the “works of the law,” and is talking about “faith alone,” and “no works” etc.; and in other places he is saying the opposite, and is all for doing good, acting in righteousness, and keeping God’s commandments. What do you think he is talking about? Answer that question for me, and you will have answered your own question.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
I agree that the Bible speaks of replacing our hearts of stone. I believe it is a metaphor for our attitude and desires and emotions.
I wonder what verses would clearly articulate the idea that the natural mind of man cannot want what God has for us.
Hw could he without a new heart?
 

Johan

Well-known member
The problem with that way of expressing it is that it can reinforce Calvinists and Reformed theologians in their false beliefs that one does not need to repent or keep the commandments of God to be saved, which is entirely heretical and false. Repenting and keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation—and that is not the same as “works”.
Keeping the commandments of God is definitely the same as doing works. What theological planet are you living on? And no, we are not saved by works but by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8–9).
 

Johan

Well-known member
Well, it is not what the scripture itself says. Being humble is considered meritorious by God, and in the sight of God, not by man; which motivates God to act in a certain way in response to it.
The Scriptures do not state that being humble is considered meritorious, i.e., deserving of honor and praise. A toddler crying in the middle of the night will call the attention of the parents and make them act in response. However, it does not follow that the toddler's crying is meritorious.
You don’t attribute merit to yourself by being humble, God does.
No, He does not. God acts because He is gracious and elevates the humble. Not because we are deserving of His goodness.
You are confusing those two things together. You mentioned prayer. The same principle applies to prayer:

James 5:

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


That suggests something meritorious in the sight of God, not by man, which motivates God to act in a certain way. You can’t get away from that. Like it or not, that is what the scripture actually says.
Your condescending "like it or not" act gets old very quickly. Again, it does not suggest that prayer is meritorious, and the Scriptures do nowhere state that prayer is meritorious. This is merely your eisegesis. God acts because He is our Father listening to the cries of His sinful and needy children and wants to give us His good gifts—not because our prayers make us deserving of honor and praise before God.
 

Howie

Well-known member
The verse I gave you says God has given the Spirit to those who obey.
I agree. That is what the verse says. God has given the Spirit yo those who obey.

By grace you have been saved throuhh faith ... it is the gift if God.

Define, "gift"
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It is the same distinction that Paul has made. This idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” etc. originates from Paul. It is not found in the writings of any other biblical writers. But in other places in his writings, Paul appears to be saying something different, such as these:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


So what do you think Paul is doing here? Is he contradicting himself? In one place he is all against the “works of the law,” and is talking about “faith alone,” and “no works” etc.; and in other places he is saying the opposite, and is all for doing good, acting in righteousness, and keeping God’s commandments. What do you think he is talking about? Answer that question for me, and you will have answered your own question.
Thanks for the post.
For the most part here, I am not interested in the dynamic where someone, who has been asked a question, asks me a question . It has its place and I do it at times, but for you to assume that you are my teacher, because I have asked you what you think, rarely works for me.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I agree. That is what the verse says. God has given the Spirit yo those who obey.

By grace you have been saved throuhh faith ... it is the gift if God.

Define, "gift"
the English word "gift" translates the Greek word doron - a gift or present
As far as I can see in the sentence structure, the gift is salvation. One clue is the phrase "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." The words "work" and "boast" are correcting those who think they can work for salvation and boast about what they have accomplished.
Is this what you are asking about?
 

Howie

Well-known member
the English word "gift" translates the Greek word doron - a gift or present
As far as I can see in the sentence structure, the gift is salvation. One clue is the phrase "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." The words "work" and "boast" are correcting those who think they can work for salvation and boast about what they have accomplished.
Is this what you are asking about?
Is a gift earned, or freely given?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The problem with that way of expressing it is that it can reinforce Calvinists and Reformed theologians in their false beliefs that one does not need to repent or keep the commandments of God to be saved, which is entirely heretical and false. Repenting and keeping the commandments of God are an absolute requirements to salvation—and that is not the same as “works”.

Why do you keep MISREPRESENTING what Calvinism actually teaches?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Keeping the commandments of God is definitely the same as doing works.
Not as Paul has defined it. All of this idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” originates with Paul; and what he means by “works” is the elaborate ritualistic observance of the Law of Moses, apart from faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn’t mean that you need to do what is right, and keep the commandments of God to be saved. Jesus is very clear about that:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


What Paul was trying to do with all of his talk about “faith alone” and “no works” was to counter the Judaizers of his day who were trying to draw away the Gentile Christians from Christianity to Judaism, and thus away from faith in Jesus Christ. He wasn’t trying to promote the kind of theology that you guys are trying to attribute to him.

What theological planet are you living on? And no, we are not saved by works but by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8–9).
See above.
 
Last edited:

zerinus

Well-known member
The Scriptures do not state that being humble is considered meritorious, i.e., deserving of honor and praise. A toddler crying in the middle of the night will call the attention of the parents and make them act in response. However, it does not follow that the toddler's crying is meritorious.
Humility is an exercise of the will. We can choose to be humble or proud. It is not the same as a toddler crying in his bed:

James 4:

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Thanks for the post.
For the most part here, I am not interested in the dynamic where someone, who has been asked a question, asks me a question . It has its place and I do it at times, but for you to assume that you are my teacher, because I have asked you what you think, rarely works for me.
See my reply to John above, in post #264.
 
Last edited:

zerinus

Well-known member
Is a gift earned, or freely given?
“Earned” or not is “not earned” the proper way of looking at it. You give gifts to those you love, not to those you hate. So there was a reason for loving them instead of hating them.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
zer

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is clear what the Will of His Father is

Jn 6:39,40

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Top