Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

zerinus

Well-known member
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on do not sin any longer.” Jn 8:11.

If the definition of "repent" is "stop sinning," as you say, why didn't Jesus tell her,
"Go, repent"?
He could have, and the meaning would have been the same. There is always more than one way of saying the same thing. Just because he said it one way, it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have said it another way.
You really ought to learn what the word means.
You mean like in these verses:

Revelation 2:

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 9:

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:


11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

You really need to learn your Bible a little bit better.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
So you dont get frustrated on a regular basis like most humans?

Kids? Friends? Other drivers? Telemarketers?
You mean like Jesus did from time to time:

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Are you calling Jesus a sinner?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Not as Paul has defined it. All of this idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” originates with Paul; and what he means by “works” is the elaborate ritualistic observance of the Law of Moses, apart from faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn’t mean that you need to do what is right, and keep the commandments of God to be saved. Jesus is very clear about that:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


What Paul was trying to do with all of his talk about “faith alone” and “no works” was to counter the Judaizers of his day who were trying to draw away the Gentile Christians from Christianity to Judaism, and thus away from faith in Jesus Christ. He wasn’t trying to promote the kind of theology that you guys are trying to attribute to him.


See above.

Shameful misrepresentation of the Apostle Paul. Tell me, is Paul, an apostle chosen by Jesus Christ more important than a rejected adolescent?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
So you do not consider yourself saved?
Mormons don't believe in grace as we do. They have to pay their tithes (and give a reckoning of it) dot every i and top every T. It's all about works salvation. Works means wearing certain undergarments and learning the freemasonry handshakes. It explains why they disrespect the Apostle Paul.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Not as Paul has defined it. All of this idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” originates with Paul; and what he means by “works” is the elaborate ritualistic observance of the Law of Moses, apart from faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn’t mean that you need to do what is right, and keep the commandments of God to be saved. Jesus is very clear about that:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


What Paul was trying to do with all of his talk about “faith alone” and “no works” was to counter the Judaizers of his day who were trying to draw away the Gentile Christians from Christianity to Judaism, and thus away from faith in Jesus Christ. He wasn’t trying to promote the kind of theology that you guys are trying to attribute to him.


See above.
Yet another misrepresentation of the Apostle Paul. Shameful.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
It depends on how you fail. If you fail due to natural human weakness, yes, you can repent again. But if you fail out of a willful and outright defiance of the will of God, that cannot be so easily repented of or forgiven.

Also, to repent means to stop sinning. Repenting and sinning, and repenting and sinning, and repenting and sinning, ... means that you had never repented in the first place. If you shoplift today, and repent of it tomorrow; and do it again the following day, and repent of it the next day; and do it again the following day, ... that means that you had never repented in the first place. You cannot deceive God. God knows what is in people’s hearts, and judges them accordingly.

I'm so glad that my Savior can be trusted to save me. No works ever will.

Perseverance of the Saints from the scriptures.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one”
(John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).



Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen
(2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).



The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).
 

Howie

Well-known member
He could have, and the meaning would have been the same. There is always more than one way of saying the same thing. Just because he said it one way, it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have said it another way.

You mean like in these verses:

Revelation 2:

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 9:

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:


11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

You really need to learn your Bible a little bit better.
You did a word sesrch ...
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Shameful misrepresentation of the Apostle Paul. Tell me, is Paul, an apostle chosen by Jesus Christ more important than a rejected adolescent?
Mormons don't believe in grace as we do. They have to pay their tithes (and give a reckoning of it) dot every i and top every T. It's all about works salvation. Works means wearing certain undergarments and learning the freemasonry handshakes. It explains why they disrespect the Apostle Paul.
Yet another misrepresentation of the Apostle Paul. Shameful.
So it looks like Calvinism, among other things, also drives people insane. Congratulations. :eek:
 

Johan

Well-known member
Nay, I happen to know my Bible, which you evidently don’t. I have a friendly suggestion to make. Calvinism is a heresy. Ditch Calvinism, and believe the Bible.
I will rather ditch your hypocritical salvation by works theology. You do not believe the Bible—you believe your distorted interpretation of the Epistle of James. Make no mistake: you were born a sinner, you are presently a sinner, and you will die a sinner. Something for you to ponder while contemplating that you one day will meet our holy God.
 

Johan

Well-known member
Not as Paul has defined it. All of this idea of “faith alone,” and “no works” originates with Paul; and what he means by “works” is the elaborate ritualistic observance of the Law of Moses, apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
Sounds like you have bought into this "new perspective on Paul" nonsense. Whenever Paul exemplifies the Law, he refers to the Decalogue and not to any rituals.
It doesn’t mean that you need to do what is right, and keep the commandments of God to be saved. Jesus is very clear about that:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
And your exegesis shows that "doeth the will" equals keeping the commandments of God? And which commandments, by the way?

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:40)

... which is quite pertinent since Jesus in the same chapter (6:29) states that believing in Him equals doing the works that God requires.
What Paul was trying to do with all of his talk about “faith alone” and “no works” was to counter the Judaizers of his day who were trying to draw away the Gentile Christians from Christianity to Judaism, and thus away from faith in Jesus Christ. He wasn’t trying to promote the kind of theology that you guys are trying to attribute to him.
What Paul was trying to do is to offer hope in a seemingly hopeless situation. He concluded that Jews and Gentiles alike are under the power of sin and that no one will be justified by the works of the Law before God. So, unlike you, he pointed to the salvific work of Christ as our only reliable hope. What you call "Judaism" equals justification through the Law (the entire Law, not only the ritual commands), which no one can accomplish.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (Rom. 3:21–25).

That is the Gospel (which you will not find in the Epistle of James, by the way).
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Then you will have to explain why if they had the Spirit they received the Spirit
The Disciples being breathed on by Jesus hid away in an upper room, to scared to do anything. They cast lots and were not "hearing" the Spirit.

When the Spirit fell on Pentecost they received Power.

So explain how they received the Spirit but were filled with the Spirit on Pentecost?
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

44 Then he said to them, These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

 

Manfred

Well-known member
I don't think more speciation. I think we can deduce from scripture they had the spirit to live the spiritual life.
Speculation.
The opening of their "minds" to understand scripture and the infilling of the Spirit occurred after the resurrection.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
You mean like Jesus did from time to time:

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Are you calling Jesus a sinner?
Rebuking sin isn’t sin.

On the other hand Not being content in your heart and grumbling over your circumstances, having negative thought of others because they inconvenience us is. Which is what nearly every human does all the time.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Yes and such people will not say they are saved by their works "alone," but by faith "and works." I was just recently in a discussion with someone who made this statement below:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
Amen! The act of obedience that is accomplished before receiving the Holy Spirit is the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Act of obeying?

Let me ask you, do you live in the Spirit or in the Flesh or both?
When you are in the flesh, what act of obedience did you do to believe?
When you are in the Spirit, does the Spirit lead you to be obedient and is this not an act of self will, but rather an act of God?

So please tell me which works of obedience did you generate to obtain faith in the flesh?
Surely you did not merely decide to believe. You said that you have to generate works of obedience that will help you to make a choice to be believe if you can be understood correctly.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
But what is actually does is state a concept: the spirit is given to those who obey.
Who obey what?
If you say the Gospel, please tell me what there is in the Gospel that you need to obey for you to make a choice to believe.

Can you also explain how you can understand the gospel through obedience?
 
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