Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

MMDAN

Active member
Act of obeying?

Let me ask you, do you live in the Spirit or in the Flesh or both?
When you are in the flesh, what act of obedience did you do to believe?
When you are in the Spirit, does the Spirit lead you to be obedient and is this not an act of self will, but rather an act of God?

So please tell me which works of obedience did you generate to obtain faith in the flesh?
Surely you did not merely decide to believe. You said that you have to generate works of obedience that will help you to make a choice to be believe if you can be understood correctly.
Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. It's not about generating works of obedience to help you make that choice. God draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) then after that it's our choice to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I never said that man “merits” salvation by the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel. Man needs to repent “change his mind” before he can believe the gospel which involves choice in receiving Christ. One cannot come to believe something for the first time that he did not previously believe without making a choice to do so.
When Jesus opened the "minds" of the Disciples to understand scripture, did they then make a choice to understand scripture?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
but He doesn't force us to believe the gospel
Where do you come up with stuff like this?

Irresistible grace does not imply force.
When your wife to you becomes irresistible on occasion, you are not forced to love her.
When God draws you, it is not by force. It is an AGAPE act.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. It's not about generating works of obedience to help you make that choice. God draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) then after that it's our choice to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Thanks for the scripture.

Do you care to try and answer the questions?

Let me ask you, do you live in the Spirit or in the Flesh or both?
When you are in the flesh, what act of obedience did you do to believe?
When you are in the Spirit, does the Spirit lead you to be obedient and is this not an act of self will, but rather an act of God?

So please tell me which works of obedience did you generate to obtain faith in the flesh?
Surely you did not merely decide to believe. You said that you have to generate works of obedience that will help you to make a choice to be believe if you can be understood correctly.

Let me add.

What does it mean not to obey the gospel?
Choosing to believe what?

What did you choose to believe in the Gospel? Was this in your flesh, or in the Spirit?
 

MMDAN

Active member
Thanks for the scripture.

Do you care to try and answer the questions?

Let me ask you, do you live in the Spirit or in the Flesh or both?
When you are in the flesh, what act of obedience did you do to believe?
When you are in the Spirit, does the Spirit lead you to be obedient and is this not an act of self will, but rather an act of God?

So please tell me which works of obedience did you generate to obtain faith in the flesh?
Surely you did not merely decide to believe. You said that you have to generate works of obedience that will help you to make a choice to be believe if you can be understood correctly.

Let me add.

What does it mean not to obey the gospel?
Choosing to believe what?

What did you choose to believe in the Gospel? Was this in your flesh, or in the Spirit?
You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is. It's all simplified in post #329.
 

Johan

Well-known member
If I understood you correctly, I'd have to disagree:

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jam 2:10 NKJ)

Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Jam 2:13 NKJ)
The verses you quoted are hardly the Gospel. The Gospel is the message of Christ and Him crucified for our salvation.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Nay, I happen to know my Bible, which you evidently don’t. I have a friendly suggestion to make. Calvinism is a heresy. Ditch Calvinism, and believe the Bible.
Your view of the Trinity keeps your soul in constant danger of eternal condemnation. You worship a false God rendering your theology pointless and your opinions meaningless (1 Cor 2:15) while keeping you constantly under God's condemnation (John 3:18).

Should you die in your present state of unbelief, your soul s lost forever.

I urge you to reprent your sin of unbelief and to believe in the name of Jesus Christ WHO IS THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE (Jn 1:1-18), or you will perish (1 Jn 2:22-23; 5:10-12).
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I will rather ditch your hypocritical salvation by works theology.
It is not salvation by “works”. Keeping the commandments of God is not the same as “works”. I have already explained that enough. No need to rehash that argument again here.
You do not believe the Bible—you believe your distorted interpretation of the Epistle of James.
It seems that you don’t. And it is not just James. That theme runs throughout the Bible.
Make no mistake: you were born a sinner, you are presently a sinner, and you will die a sinner. Something for you to ponder while contemplating that you one day will meet our holy God.
Too many errors stuck together. First of all nobody is “born” a sinner. They become sinners by their own actions. Children are born “holy” (1 Cor. 7:14); and “of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3; 19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16). That is the first point. The second point is that nobody needs to “die a sinner”. Once they have repented and been baptized for the remission of sins, and are “sanctified” by the reception of the Holy Ghost, they can become pure and holy again, and need not “die as sinners”. Your Calvinistic heresy is leading you far astray.
 

Johan

Well-known member
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. I guess you meant to imply James does not have "the fullest definition of the Gospel possible."

If you qualify a definition of the Gospel as needing to be more specific then I could say any definition can be more specific.

The Work of Christ is mercy triumphing over judgment by definition. That's exactly what it is. That's what the Gospel is.

The point being, the book of James preaches a Gospel of Grace.

blessings.
Any "definition" of the Gospel that does not explicitly involve Christ is no definition of the Gospel at all. Mercy triumphing over judgment could potentially be found in any religion. It is through Christ and Him alone that we are saved.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sounds like you have bought into this "new perspective on Paul" nonsense. Whenever Paul exemplifies the Law, he refers to the Decalogue and not to any rituals.
Wrong! He was he was referring to the Judaizers of the time who taught that unless the Gentile Christians were “circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved” (Acts 15:1). That is why the council of Jerusalem was held in Acts 15, to resolve that particular issue. All of Paul’s talk about salvation by “faith alone” and “no works” was in reference to that.
And your exegesis shows that "doeth the will" equals keeping the commandments of God? And which commandments, by the way?
All of them.
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:40)

... which is quite pertinent since Jesus in the same chapter (6:29) states that believing in Him equals doing the works that God requires.

What Paul was trying to do is to offer hope in a seemingly hopeless situation. He concluded that Jews and Gentiles alike are under the power of sin and that no one will be justified by the works of the Law before God. So, unlike you, he pointed to the salvific work of Christ as our only reliable hope. What you call "Judaism" equals justification through the Law (the entire Law, not only the ritual commands), which no one can accomplish.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (Rom. 3:21–25).

That is the Gospel (which you will not find in the Epistle of James, by the way).
See above.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Any "definition" of the Gospel that does not explicitly involve Christ is no definition of the Gospel at all. Mercy triumphing over judgment could potentially be found in any religion. It is through Christ and Him alone that we are saved.
Amen the gospel is the Person and work of Christ. There is no gospel without the Who.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
You missed out the next two verses:

1 John 8:

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


The question is not about whether we have sinned or not, but whether the Atonement of Jesus Christ can cleanse us from our sins through faith and repentance; and make us holy, sanctified, and sinless again. Like I said, your Calvinistic abomination is leading you far astray.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Rebuking sin isn’t sin.
Well he showed frustration, which you equating with some kind of sinful behavior.
On the other hand Not being content in your heart and grumbling over your circumstances, having negative thought of others because they inconvenience us is. Which is what nearly every human does all the time.
You are making too many false assumptions. You are automatically assuming that other people are guilty of such offences, when you have no justifiable reason to assume that they are.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Your view of the Trinity keeps your soul in constant danger of eternal condemnation. You worship a false God rendering your theology pointless and your opinions meaningless (1 Cor 2:15) while keeping you constantly under God's condemnation (John 3:18).

Should you die in your present state of unbelief, your soul s lost forever.

I urge you to reprent your sin of unbelief and to believe in the name of Jesus Christ WHO IS THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE (Jn 1:1-18), or you will perish (1 Jn 2:22-23; 5:10-12).
LOL! I assure you I am very safe believing as I do.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
The Disciples being breathed on by Jesus hid away in an upper room, to scared to do anything. They cast lots and were not "hearing" the Spirit.

When the Spirit fell on Pentecost they received Power.

So explain how they received the Spirit but were filled with the Spirit on Pentecost?
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

44 Then he said to them, These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.
I agree with you that when Jesus blew on them, He was calling genesis to mind and that as God had breathed on Adam to give him life, the Spirit would soon breathe on believers and give them new life. jesus called it the promise of the Father and Peter declared it to be happening at pentecost.

Maybe this is one area where Calvinists and I agree.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
They made a choice to accept what is now understood.
Really. Did you make a choise to accept that 2 +2 =4, or did you have a choice not to believe it.

Jesus opened their minds to understand and with understanding they had a choise to reject it.
Knowing God you choose to go to hell.
 
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