Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

Sethproton

Well-known member
Sure, but it doesn’t deprive you of the choice and the right to apostatize at a later stage if you want to, and be damned.
You say "sure" but you don't acknowledge what you are agreeing to contradicts some of what you are sying.
If Christ is in us, we HAVE eternal life because He is eternal life. Earlier you denied this, that we already have life.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You say "sure" but you don't acknowledge what you are agreeing to contradicts some of what you are sying.
If Christ is in us, we HAVE eternal life because He is eternal life. Earlier you denied this, that we already have life.
We “have eternal life” only if we choose to “endure to the end”. And the choice to do so is entirely ours.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
It wasn't a confirmation and those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. (Romans 8:9)
But you are the one saying you make free will choices all the time and by default is not lead by God into all truth.
You decide, don't you?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Only if they remain faithful (endure to the end):

Matthew 10:

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:


13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Aint no ifs about it. They will remain faithful unto the end, Christ ensures that 1 Cor 1:6-8

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Aint no ifs about it. They will remain faithful unto the end, Christ ensures that 1 Cor 1:6-8

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Looks like there is a very important “if” in there that I see.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Looks like there is a very important “if” in there that I see.
1 Cor 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
1 Cor 1:8

8 Who shall als
o confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 3:

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
• • •
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 
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guest1

Guest
It strikes me as a bit sad that someone I would consider in a cult—no offense intended by that—often has better exegesis on here than some Christians with indoctrinated man-made teachings. This is a particularly difficult verse for the Calvinist and OSAS positions, because how can the latter end be worse than the beginning, when both positions teach the beginning is unsaved, and for the Calvinists, a vessel of wrath to boot? How can they "turn from" or "know" righteousness only in the sense of hearing a message? James says just "hearing" a message is not knowing righteousness. And in what sense could they have ever left their vomit or mire? It really feels like sacrificing meaning for pre-commitments. In fact, there are SO many verses against eternal security I really think one has to embrace some kind of absolute denial to explain them all away.
No problem if one just considers a biblical example of such a person being described, Judas !

He was around Jesus just as long as the others but never came to salvific faith in Christ.
 

MMDAN

Active member
It strikes me as a bit sad that someone I would consider in a cult—no offense intended by that—often has better exegesis on here than some Christians with indoctrinated man-made teachings. This is a particularly difficult verse for the Calvinist and OSAS positions, because how can the latter end be worse than the beginning, when both positions teach the beginning is unsaved, and for the Calvinists, a vessel of wrath to boot? How can they "turn from" or "know" righteousness only in the sense of hearing a message? James says just "hearing" a message is not knowing righteousness. And in what sense could they have ever left their vomit or mire? It really feels like sacrificing meaning for pre-commitments. In fact, there are SO many verses against eternal security I really think one has to embrace some kind of absolute denial to explain them all away.
Here is my understanding of 2 Peter 2:20-22. Those who are truly born of God have received a divine nature, and have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than merely cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). *But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4) Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the 'knowledge' of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas Iscariot (who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus) is a good example of that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
It strikes me as a bit sad that someone I would consider in a cult—no offense intended by that—often has better exegesis on here than some Christians with indoctrinated man-made teachings. ...
LOL! Or maybe it is my “cult” that gives me the advantage! :LOL:
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Here is my understanding of 2 Peter 2:20-22. Those who are truly born of God have received a divine nature, and have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than merely cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). *But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4) Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the 'knowledge' of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas Iscariot (who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus) is a good example of that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
You are ignoring the rest of the quotes. The quote from Peter is not the only one. In addition to those, you also have these:

Matthew 10:

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


“Once saved, always saved” flies in the face of the Bible from the beginning to the end.
 

Johan

Well-known member
I personally don't think "mercy triumphing over judgment" is a very common theme at all; and can't really think of one honest example, were full and true judgment was carried out while still having mercy triumph over it. If you know one, I'd like to know it.
It depends, of course, on what you mean by "having mercy triumph over it," but every time forgiveness is preached, that principle is at the forefront. I will not bother to look it up, but my guess is that you will find the notion of forgiveness in most major religions. But you also seem to quote that sentence out of its context:

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Jas. 2:12–13)

So James is basically threatening his readers with condemnation if they fail to be merciful. The focus is consequently on our behavior and not on the Lamb of God taking our sins away. So I fail to see how you find the Gospel of Christ in this passage. If you really do, then I would really like to know how you define the Gospel.
I also want to petulantly argue that I your definition of the Gospel could be more specific than it is, and in fact, the Gospel only comes by revelation anyway.
You seem to be comfortable with a Christ-less gospel. I am not. The Gospel, as I define it, is the "message of the cross" (1 Cor. 1:18), telling us how Christ came to save us by taking our sins upon Himself and carrying them onto the cross, and who was raised on the third day. The message of the approaching Easter. Our sins were imputed to Him so that His righteousness would be imputed to us, aka the blessed exchange. Classical Evangelical soteriology.
But the point I wanted to make is James does not in any sense contradict grace, which I feel if you had had a principle of charity in reading, you would simply agree with.
The theory of general relativity does also not contradict the Gospel, but it does not follow that it teaches it either. You will not find the message of the cross in the Epistle of James, and that is one of the major reasons why Luther called it an "epistle of straw."
 

Johan

Well-known member
I guess Paul disagrees with you.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." (Gal 3:8 NKJ)
According to Jesus, Abraham "rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad" (John 8:56). So apparently, Abraham knew of the coming of Christ. And there is hardly any doubt that Paul thought of the Gospel as the message of the salvific work of Christ.

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, i and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (1 Cor. 15:1–8)

That is and will always remain the Christian Gospel.
 

MMDAN

Active member
You are ignoring the rest of the quotes. The quote from Peter is not the only one. In addition to those, you also have these:

Matthew 10:

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


“Once saved, always saved” flies in the face of the Bible from the beginning to the end.
Which quotes from Peter was I ignoring? Enduring to the end is 'descriptive' of those who are truly born of God. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Hebrews 3:

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
• • •
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
1 Cor 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is going to confirm them to the end ?
 

MMDAN

Active member
Hebrews 3:

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
• • •
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast.." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold.."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a "distinction" between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
 
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