Acts 5:32 Obedience before the indwelling

MMDAN

Active member
Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Looks like there is a very important “if” in there that I see.
In regards to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. *To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to 'nominal' Christians and not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Christian community of Hebrew believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Which quotes from Peter was I ignoring?
Hebrews 3, Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 10.
Enduring to the end is 'descriptive' of those who are truly born of God. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
“Enduring to the end” is a conditional statement. It is saying that certain consequences will follow provided that certain conditions are met. And if you want a more descriptive account of those “conditions” and “consequences,” look up the parable of the sower. You guys turn every scripture that contradicts your theology on its head in order to make it support your theology. That is the only way that Calvinism can survive, by turning the whole of the Bible on its head.
 

MMDAN

Active member
Hebrews 3, and Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 10.

“Enduring to the end” is a conditional statement. It is saying that certain consequences will follow provided that certain conditions are met. And if you want a more descriptive account of those “conditions” and “consequences,” look up the parable of the sower. You guys turn every scripture that contradicts your theology on its head in order to make it support your theology. That is the only way that Calvinism can survive, by turning the whole of the Bible on its head.
I don't consider myself a 5 point Calvinist. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I don't consider myself a 5 point Calvinist. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.
That is your way of justifying your heretical theology—whether it is “5 point,” or “4 point,” or anything else. The Bible teaches that we must repent of our sins, and keep the commandments of God to be saved; and that is not the same as “salvation by works”.
 

MMDAN

Active member
Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation."

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced conviction for sin, heard the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) has taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39).

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" who is the guarantee of our future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we simply 'taste' into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine that is accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. *Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
 

MMDAN

Active member
That is your way of justifying your heretical theology—whether it is “5 point,” or “4 point,” or anything else. The Bible teaches that we must repent of our sins, and keep the commandments of God to be saved; and that is not the same as “salvation by works”.
I teach that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) How is that heretical theology? The Bible does teach that we must repent (change our mind) and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21) *Two sides to the same coin.* It doesn't mean sinless perfection. Teaching that we are saved based on the merits of keeping the commandments of God (and how do you define "keep") since nobody has perfectly obeyed all of the commandments of God (except for Jesus Christ).

Another 'descriptive' passage of scripture. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I teach that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) How is that heretical theology? The Bible does teach that we must repent (change our mind) and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21) *Two sides to the same coin.*
To repent means to stop sinning. It doesn’t mean to just change your mind. I have already discussed that with others at great length in this thread, so no need to repeat the same arguments all over again here. Look at page 15 where the main discussion occured; but it would be a good idea to read through the whole thread to set the full background for the discussion.
It doesn't mean sinless perfection.
That is the poor excuse that Calvinists like to bring for not keeping the commandments of God. Again, look at the previous posts in this thread.
Teaching that we are saved based on the merits of keeping the commandments of God (and how do you define "keep") since nobody has perfectly obeyed all of the commandments of God (except for Jesus Christ).
Keeping the commandments of God is not the same as “merit” or “salvation by works”. Again, see previous posts before continuing. All has been discussed at length in previous posts.
 

MMDAN

Active member
To repent means to stop sinning. It doesn’t mean to just change your mind. I have already discussed that with others at great length in this thread, so no need to repeat the same arguments all over again here. Look at page 15 where the main discussion occured; but it would be a good idea to read through the whole thread to set the full background for the discussion.

That is the poor excuse that Calvinists like to bring for not keeping the commandments of God. Again, look at the previous posts in this thread.

Keeping the commandments of God is not the same as “merit” or “salvation by works”. Again, see previous posts before continuing. All has been discussed at length in previous posts.
The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, what you change your mind about and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. *Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin of receiving Christ.

In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) as we see in 1 Thessalonians 1:9. On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Certain people misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean "completely stop sinning." That is not the Biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) and not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Certain people confuse the "fruit of repentance" with the "essence of repentance" (and also do the same thing with faith) and end up teaching salvation by works.

I have heard certain people say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." Yet if turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And in that case, it is unlikely that anyone will be saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever "completely stopped sinning." Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10) Such people tend to have serious issues with pride and view themselves as "holier than thou" while looking down on others.

If man was saved based on perfectly obeying all the commandments of God, then man would merit salvation by works. Either we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) or else we are saved through faith and works. You can't have it both ways.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
We “have eternal life” only if we choose to “endure to the end”. And the choice to do so is entirely ours.

All you ever do is spew your personal opinion, sans any Scripture, and the repeat yourself ad nauseam.

And ironically (since you are the one constantly making this accusation), YOU are the one "ignoring 99% of Scripture and building a doctrine on only 1% of Scripture".
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Mormonism and its denial of the Trinity.

How about its denial of monotheism?
Its denial of sola Scriptura?
Its denial of salvation by faith?
Its denial of the distinction between God and man, Creator and creature?
Its denial of monogamy?
 

Howie

Well-known member
How about its denial of monotheism?
Its denial of sola Scriptura?
Its denial of salvation by faith?
Its denial of the distinction between God and man, Creator and creature?
Its denial of monogamy?
His primary crime, according to the law, is his worship of a false God. From that, all his other crimes are predictable.
 
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