Adam Shamed and Killed (“crucified”) by a Tree

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of Gods (bênê Ēlîm).
(Psalm 89:6)
Yes, angels, forces of nature, are referred to as gods. We are called gods as well, so are judges, Moses, the house of David, etc. Those representing God are often referred to as God. They act as the representative of God. It's a basic Hebrew and Jewish concept.

From Wikipedia
It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'.
This still doesn't help you.

It's easy to see and verify that YHWH is God Most High in Tanakh. He is referred to at times as e-l, elo-him, etc. Have you not studied this?

Examples:

Psalm 83:18 May they know that You alone, whose name is the LORD, are Most High over all the earth.

Genesis 14:22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth,
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
Yes, angels, forces of nature, are referred to as gods. We are called gods as well, so are judges, Moses, the house of David, etc. Those representing God are often referred to as God. They act as the representative of God. It's a basic Hebrew and Jewish concept.
So you are doing no different than the Essenes, Philo, Paul, and Christianity did, seeing many "gods" in scripture. Therefore, I could accuse you of being polytheistic too. Where you choose YHWH El-ohim (which, BTW, is plural), TOR, Philo, and Paul choose "the El" as the one, true God.

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, [aka, "the El" or "the God Most High"] from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, [aka, Ruach Elohim] through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge (Greek: gnosis)."
(1 cor 8:5)

This still doesn't help you.

It's easy to see and verify that YHWH is God Most High in Tanakh. He is referred to at times as e-l, elo-him, etc. Have you not studied this?
 
Last edited:

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
So you are doing no different than the Essenes, Philo, Paul, and Christianity did, seeing many "gods" in scripture.
If you know anything about the Hebrew language, terms like e-l, elo-him, are used to denote power, might, humans, and the divine.

There is only one true God and Tanakh is explicit about this. It shouldn't be hard to grasp.

Jeremiah 10:10
But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

So you're wrong once again.

Therefore, I could accuse you of being polytheistic too. Where you choose YHWH El-ohim (which, BTW, is plural), TOR, Philo, and Paul choose "the El" as the one, true God.
I never said three gods are one. So any accusations would be false on your part. You on the other hand...

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, [aka, "the El" or "the God Most High"] from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, [aka, Ruach Elohim] through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Your interpretation using gnostic thinking doesn't help you and neither does your source of inspiration.

By the way, since you mention God the Father, Isaiah 63:16 associates Him with YHWH. You shot yourself in the foot, doc.

However, not all possess this knowledge (Greek: gnosis)." (1 cor 8:5)
Yes, you've been steared towards the wrong path.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
If you know anything about the Hebrew language, terms like e-l, elo-him, are used to denote power, might, humans, and the divine.

There is only one true God and Tanakh is explicit about this. It shouldn't be hard to grasp.

Jeremiah 10:10
But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

So you're wrong once again.


I never said three gods are one. So any accusations would be false on your part. You on the other hand...


Your interpretation using gnostic thinking doesn't help you and neither does your source of inspiration.

By the way, since you mention God the Father, Isaiah 63:16 associates Him with YHWH. You shot yourself in the foot, doc.


Yes, you've been steared towards the wrong path.
You apparently have made your choice based upon YOUR understanding of scripture. Again, you are free to ignore the evidence, reason, and history presented by me from those who chose differently. I don't care to argue with you.
 
Last edited:

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You apparently have made your choice based upon YOUR understanding of scripture.
If you've noticed, YHWH is a singular name and any reference and connection to it would also render the terms singular in context such as e-l, elo-him, etc.

The term elo-him, though etymologically plural is used for singular or plural gods. The context determines the understanding just like English words such as sheep, fish, etc. We also find in Hebrew other terms that are etymologically plural but translated as singular based on context such as panim, mayim, shamayim, etc.

These are facts you are avoiding and have no rebuttal to.

You need to know what your talking about.

Again, you are free to ignore the evidence, reason, and history presented by me from those who chose differently.
What you've presented is a bias side without considering what I've given you.

Your reference to TOR, Philo, and Paul doesn't help your case.

I don't care to argue with you.
We're not arguing. I'm just showing you the holes in your argument.
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
If you've noticed, YHWH is a singular name and any reference and connection to it would also render the terms singular in context such as e-l, elo-him, etc.

The term elo-him, though etymologically plural is used for singular or plural gods. The context determines the understanding just like English words such as sheep, fish, etc. We also find in Hebrew other terms that are etymologically plural but translated as singular based on context such as panim, mayim, shamayim, etc.

These are facts you are avoiding and have no rebuttal to.

You need to know what your talking about.


What you've presented is a bias side without considering what I've given you.
You should try looking in a mirror when you say that.
Your reference to TOR, Philo, and Paul doesn't help your case.
Of course not. (sarcasm)
Why would the writings from the founder of the Essenes help my case?
Why would a prominent Jewish leader in Alexandria at the beginning of our common era help my case? Certainly, a prominent Jewish leader in Alexandria would have no idea what ideas were common to second Temple Judaism.
Why would the author of over half the New Testament help my case?

It is statements like this that undermines your credibility and show your partisanship.

We're not arguing. I'm just showing you the holes in your argument.
In your fantasy.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You should try looking in a mirror when you say that.
I've defended my point.

Of course not. (sarcasm)
Why would the writings from the founder of the Essenes help my case?
Why would it?

Why would a prominent Jewish leader in Alexandria at the beginning of our common era help my case?
Philo was a Helenist and not within the normative Jewish Orthodox thinking. That doesn't help your case just like Mormons, JWs, Moonies, doesn't help either.

Certainly, a prominent Jewish leader in Alexandria would have no idea what ideas were common to second Temple Judaism.
Hellenism, yes. Prominent in religious Jewish circles, no.

Why would the author of over half the New Testament help my case?
Because Paul was a Hellenist with zero training as a Pharisee. An apostate to Judaism, and ridiculed by 2nd temple believers as noted by your own church.

It is statements like this that undermines your credibility and show your partisanship.
No, it shows that what you hold on to are not mainstream and fringe thinking, syncretised Hellenism, paganism. All of it the birthing of what is your Christianity.

In your fantasy.
Which is why you can't address what I've supplied in terms of etymology, etc.

Your ideology and religion are fantasy.
 
Last edited:

sk0rpi0n

Active member
I assumed that you were aware of the two creations in Genesis which are commonly known.

Huh? There are no "two creations" in Genesis. what are you even talking about?
Can you post a link to a commentary that you're getting your ideas from?

Two Stories, Creations, Powers, Potencies, and Adams
1) Genesis 1:1-2:3. Ruach Elohim >>>>> second (immortal, spiritual, incorporal) Adam
2) Genesis 2:4 -5. YHWH Elohim >>>>> first (mortal, earthly, corporal) Adam

There was just one Adam in both Genesis 1 and 2.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
As I have said before, the ONLY scriptures Paul had to work with were Hebrew scriptures.

in this OP I am demonstrating the Jewish (Essene) interpretation of the Hebrew creation myths as the source of Paul’s Christ. The Essenes existed long before the New Testament.

Therefore, Paul’s Christ has everything to do with Jewish interpretations of scripture. I even led in to this OP with Paul’s own words asserting that Christ crucified can be seen in HEBREW scripture.

Why run from it? Why run from your own scriptures?
Do not conflate the Essenes with Judaism. They were a cult that died out long ago. Their writing are religiously superfluous.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Equivocating a Jewish sect living in Palestine 2,200 years ago with Joseph Smith is absurd. That has got to be the weakest dodge I have ever seen on CARM.
He's pointing out that heretical cults come into existence, and must not be conflated with the mainstream religion. Just as a Christian would say the writings of Joseph Smith or the Watchtower have nothing to do with Christianity, a Jew will say that the Essenes have nothing to do with Judaism.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Huh? There are no "two creations" in Genesis. what are you even talking about?
Can you post a link to a commentary that you're getting your ideas from?



There was just one Adam in both Genesis 1 and 2.
Yes, there are two creation stories. The first is the song in Genesis one where each day is a verse. The second is chapters 2-3, and concern adam and eve in the garden. The two stories even conflict, where plants are made before human beings in Genesis 1, but Adam is made before plants in Genesis 2.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Do not conflate the Essenes with Judaism. They were a cult that died out long ago. Their writing are religiously superfluous.
You do not know Jewish history. There were three sects of Judaism when the second temple stood. Essenes and Pharisees were two of them. Based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Essenes were aligned with the Hasmonean dynasty, therefore, they most likely controlled the Temple during that time before Queen Salome came to power who switched alliance to the Pharisees. The Romans were invited in by the Pharisees because of the civil war between the sects. After the TOR was martyred the Essenes went abroad to Alexandria, Antioch, and likely elsewhere. The Romans then appointed King Herod to rule.

By the first century C.E. Palestine became unmanageable due to their own internal conflicts and religious fanaticism. Rome put down the insurrection destroying the temple and the ultimately the nation. The Essenes who founded the Way and Messianic Judaism went on to become Christianity. The Essenes in its second temple form died out in Jerusalem but so did all Judaism in Palestine because the nation had been destroyed.

Therefore, Christianitys roots are arguably from the Essenes, then Paul/Philo/Therapeutae/Nassenes/Ebionites (?) who allegorized before being taken over by the Roman Emperor in 386 C.E. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls pretty much supports the Essenes as the original Jewish-Christians.

Just because you side with the sect of Pharisees does not change actual history. Your sect of Judaism has nothing to boast about having lost the entire nation due to fanaticism. You literalize scripture, have no idea why none of the promises were fulfilled, you cherry pick what scriptures must mean, and imagine you are the ”only true“ Jew. Typically, though, every sect thinks it is the “only true” {fill in the blank}, so I cannot blame you for that.
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
Yes, there are two creation stories. The first is the song in Genesis one where each day is a verse. The second is chapters 2-3, and concern adam and eve in the garden. The two stories even conflict, where plants are made before human beings in Genesis 1, but Adam is made before plants in Genesis 2.
Thank you. It is nice to see someone speak up for what is true (or at the least what is an alternative explanation) when they did not have too. I noticed you also spoke up for evolution too in another OP. Kudos.
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
Huh? There are no "two creations" in Genesis. what are you even talking about?
Can you post a link to a commentary that you're getting your ideas from?



There was just one Adam in both Genesis 1 and 2.
Another person clueless about what scriptures say but dogmatic in his opinions. (If I only had a nickel every time someone told me I was wrong, I would be a wealthy man.)
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
He's pointing out that heretical cults come into existence, and must not be conflated with the mainstream religion. Just as a Christian would say the writings of Joseph Smith or the Watchtower have nothing to do with Christianity, a Jew will say that the Essenes have nothing to do with Judaism.

His equivocating between Joseph Smith and the Essenes is absurd because of the separation by time, culture, language, history, and religion. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the origins of the Essenes

Just because an idea is expressed in a new form, eg., from modern Christianity to Joseph Smith does not necessarily make it wrong. We throw around terms like “cult” and “heresy” as perjoratives, but have you forgotten that modern Christianity started out as a cult itself…arguably, from the sect of Judaism, namely, the Essenes? Eventually, the LDS will be considered a mainstream religion if it continues to grow. That is how it works.

Personally, I like to investigate what is common among religions because I think God is over all nations. Different religions take on different forms but there remains an underlying common thread. I touch on it in this OP with the Holy Spirit forming a moral conscience in man irregardless of race, nationality, language, and sex. Of course, other religions would call it by another name: Logos, Mind, Wisdom of God, Hermes, for example.

Every religion starts out as a cult until it grows big enough to become mainstream. Judaism likely took on aspects of the Zoroastrian religion during Babylonian/Persian rule. In fact, Noah’s flood comes from the Epic of Gilgamash written up to 1,000 years before in Babylonian lore. Therefore, In comparative religion a “cult” is defined as a branch off a mainstream religion before it becomes mainstream itself. Moreover, a “heresy” originally meant a new way of teaching something. People would go to hear a new heresy to learn something new.
 
Last edited:

Open Heart

Well-known member
His equivocating between Joseph Smith and the Essenes is absurd because of the separation by time, culture, language, history, and religion. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the origins of the Essenes
He didn't say that J Smith had anything to do with the Essenes. He was doing a classic analogy of A is the B as C is to D. The Mormons are to Christianity as Essenes are to Judaism.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
He didn't say that J Smith had anything to do with the Essenes. He was doing a classic analogy of A is the B as C is to D. The Mormons are to Christianity as Essenes are to Judaism.
You mean like Hitler was a Christian so all Christians hate Jews.

Your analogy is still absurd. Mormonism has nothing to do with a sect of Judaism 2.200 years ago.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
If a sect dies out, it was never of God. Again, do not conflate the essenes with Judaism.
Sounds like the true Scotsman fallacy, an appeal to purity. Again, all Judaism died out in Palestine after the Jews revolted and "The Way" evolved into Christianity. But why allow history to get in the way of your prejudice?
 
Top