ADMISSION: JW Beliefs Don't Come From The Bible

Okay. Myself, I do not see any way for the one to not at the very least very directly imply and actually very much logically lead to the other.
Since the admission and declaration is that you cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading you do, then how does this not mean that JWs doctrines do not come from the Bible but from outside the Bible?
 
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Okay. Myself, I do not see any way for the one to not at the very least very directly imply and actually very much logically lead to the other.
Since the admission and declaration is that you cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading you do, then how does this not mean that JWs doctrines do not come from the Bible but from outside the Bible?
I really can't answer that question meaningfully because I'm not affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm not an apologist for them. You should ask them. In fact, it would have been a good idea to have asked them before you started this thread. But I know it's simply false to say they don't get at least some of their beliefs from "the Bible." They believe in God (Yahweh/Jehovah), Jesus, Satan, and miracles like the resurrection from the dead. Where do you think they got those ideas if not from the Bible?
 
The answer to your question is...
a) The official admission and declaration of the JW I wrote above. ALL the beliefs listed by the JW "leaders" – about God, about Christ, and so on – come after and under the admission and declaration of A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible, no matter how much Bible reading they do. Those things are examples of the first sentence.
So – According to this admission and declaration by the JW "leaders", you cannot and will not ever find JW beliefs about God, about Christ, and so on by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading you do.

b) The fact that JWs are to receive, believe, and follow whatever the JW "leaders" dictate to them as coming from God. There are official quotes that substantiate this.


As for their beliefs regarding God, Christ and His Resurrection, and the resurrection of the dead - JWs deny and reject what the Bible says. For instance, when it comes to Christ's Resurrection, JWs have historically denied the bodily Resurrection of Christ and have maintained that His was a "spirit" or "spiritual" resurrection. Here are some quotes from the Watchtower:
"The King, Christ Jesus, was put to death in the flesh and was resurrected an invisible spirit creature." 1

They have further stated that, "In His resurrection He was no more human. He was raised as a spirit creature." 2

In addition to this, the Watchtower has even suggested that Christ's body was "dissolved into gases" or "preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God's love." 3

References:
1. Let God Be True, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 122, Edition 1946.

2. The Kingdom is at Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 258.

3. Studies in the Scripture, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 129, Vol 2.


As for the word "Jehovah", here is some information regarding that: As you may already be aware, Ancient Jews had a superstitious dread of pronouncing the name YHWH. They feared any pronunciation of YHWH was a violation of the third commandment, so they substituted Adonai in its place. Over time the pronunciation was lost, and since the pronunciation was lost and Hebrew is written without vowels, the vowels were lost also.

Over time it was copied with Adonai wrote above YHWH, and as Kyrios in the Septuagint. Masoretes [scribes and scholars living in Jerusalem and Tiberius] attempted to fix divisions of Jewish Bibles for the worldwide Jewish community. They combined the vowels of Adonai [ADONAI] with YHWH to produce Yahowah. During the Reformation, when the church was headquartered in Germany Yahowah was Germanized to Jahovah or Jehovah by substituting the J for Y and V for W. Other names such as Yosef to Joseph, Yud to Jude, Yob to Job were also Germanized. Jehovah is not found in the Septuagint, Samaritan Pentateuch, Apocrypha, or early manuscripts of the New Testament.

Well...It is one thing to say that we suspect, we assume, we conclude, that Jehovah is the name of God. It is another to claim without a doubt (as JWs do) that Jehovah IS the right and proper name of God. Also - and this is BIG: If Jehovah is truly and definitely the true and proper name of God, then where and when and how did the WTS discover the correct vowels?

There is also this - and this is BIG: In the introductory material in the Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures published by the Watchtower Society, on page 23 of the 1969 edition, it says: "While inclining to view the pronunciation 'Yahweh' as the more correct way, we have retained the form 'Jehovah' because of people's familiarity with it since the 14th century."

Let's be clear about this: They're pretty much saying, "Since we've been mispronouncing God's name for a long time, we might as well keep on doing it".

For a group that has made and still makes such a HUGE deal about "Jehovah" being the true and proper name of God and must be used, that simply, flat out doesn't make sense.

Or, what about another Watchtower publication, "Aid to Bible Understanding", which says on page 885 of its 1971 edition that Yahweh is "the most likely pronunciation" of the Hebrew letters YHWH.

Same point as before.

If JW "leaders" were saying almost 50 years years ago that "Yahweh" is the more correct pronunciation, then why has not the organization started calling itself "Yahweh's Witnesses"? Shouldn't they be using the correct pronunciation? Even the JW "leaders" admit that "Jehovah" isn't correct.

Here's another quote from the JW "leaders": "Yahweh . .. is admittedly superior to Jehovah. 'The wrong spelling Jehovah occurs since about 1100' and then it offers its arguments in favor of Yahweh as the correct and original pronunciation." (Let Your Name Be Sanctified, Jehovah's Witnesses, p 16-20) See the words "wrong spelling" there? That is an absolutely SPECTACULAR admission on the part of the JW "leaders".

Here's another quote from the JW "leaders": "The first recorded use of this form [Jehovah] dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish [Roman Catholic] monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270 C.E." (Aid To Bible Understanding, 1971, p. 884-5).

So – The word "Jehovah" was made by a Roman Catholic monk in the middle ages. So, whenever the JW cult insists and demands about the word being the true and proper name of God and must be used, they are insisting and demanding using a word that came by way of someone who was a devoted member of the Roman Catholic Church....which they totally despise and condemn.
 
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I see nothing in that quotation in the OP that states or implies that the JWs don't get their beliefs from the Bible. It says that you cannot arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible. Obviously many people read the Bible without necessarily arriving at their sect's beliefs. I checked the context of that quotation, and here it is from the article How Can We Respond Unselfishly to God’s Love?:

So we see that the JWs are saying that you need the Watchtower to arrive at the beliefs of the JWs and not that they don't get their beliefs from the Bible.
One needs-Matt 24:45-Jesus' appointed teachers. To know Gods truth. hundreds if not thousands of different trinity based religions with hundreds of different truths prove one cannot know Gods deep truth without being taught by these-Matt 24:45--They get holy spirit which guides them into ALL truth= at the proper time. The rest is a mass of confusion because they lack holy spirit. No one can understand the deep things in the bible without being taught-the mass of confusion proves it.
 
The answer to your question is...
a) The official admission and declaration of the JW I wrote above. ALL the beliefs listed by the JW "leaders" – about God, about Christ, and so on – come after and under the admission and declaration of A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible, no matter how much Bible reading they do. Those things are examples of the first sentence.
So – According to this admission and declaration by the JW "leaders", you cannot and will not ever find JW beliefs about God, about Christ, and so on by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading you do.
But you can say the same thing for the New Testament. You won't arrive at Christian beliefs by reading the Old Testament.
 
I must ask you to please pay better attention and stay focused. We are talking about JW beliefs and what the JW "leaders" have said about them.

They have said that A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible, no matter how much Bible reading they do.

Note the subject and focus here - It is on the beliefs of the JWs.

If you wish to engage in debating Christian beliefs (in particular with Christians), there are other boards for that.
 
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I must ask you to please pay better attention and stay focused. We are talking about JW beliefs and what the JW "leaders" have said about them.

They have said that A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible, no matter how much Bible reading they do.

Note the subject and focus here - It is on the beliefs of the JWs.

If you wish to engage in debating Christian beliefs (in particular with Christians), there are other boards for that.
What beliefs are you referring to? I already listed several JW beliefs that come from the Bible. The JWs place great emphasis on the Bible.
 
The beliefs you've listed come under the open admission and declaration. What JWs believe about those things do not come from the Bible. I have already shown that when it comes to the Resurrection of Christ.

JWs have a false, unbiblical Christ and a false, unbiblical way of salvation and multiple other falsehoods. For instance - When it comes to the matter of salvation, here is the false, unbiblical "gospel" the JWs believe:

Watchtower 12/15/67 p.753, 754 "What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago? This, namely, the birth of God's Messianic kingdom in the heavens at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914...God's Messianic kingdom was indeed born in the heavens at the due time in 1914 and the "this good news of the kingdom" means the fresh, brand new information that tells of God's established kingdom." Watchtower 5/1/81 p.17

"Let the honest-hearted person compare the kind of preaching of the gospel of the kingdom done by the religious systems of Christendom during all the centuries with that done by Jehovah's Witnesses since the end of World War I in 1918. They are not one and the same kind. That of Jehovah's Witnesses is really "gospel," or "good news," as of God's heavenly kingdom that was established by the enthronement of his son Jesus Christ at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914."

So – Here we have two admissions that what JWs preach as the "gospel" and what is found in the Bible are not the same. JWs preach a "different gospel".

And here is what the Apostle Paul wrote about those who do this: Galatians 1: 6-9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

And here is what the JW masters have declared about THEMSELVES regarding salvation: They have openly declared that your attitude toward and treatment of them – NOT Christ, THEMSELVES – will be the determining factor as to whether you will have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day or not:
Watchtower 81/8/1 26 Harvesting in the "Time of the End" “Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed “brothers” of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into “everlasting cutting-off” or receive “everlasting life."

Add to this that JWs teach that a person MUST become a JW in order to have the possibility of MAYBE gaining salvation one day. This is 100% falsehood. And there are MORE requirements for salvation in the JW system, and NONE of them have any biblical support at all.
 
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The beliefs you've listed come under the open admission and declaration.
What is "open admission and declaration"?
What JWs believe about those things do not come from the Bible. I have already shown that when it comes to the Resurrection of Christ.
Everybody has beliefs that aren't in the Bible or beliefs that somebody else says are not in the Bible. The Jehovah's witnesses are no different in that regard.
JWs have a false, unbiblical Christ and a false, unbiblical way of salvation and multiple other falsehoods.
Perhaps, but their beliefs in Christ and salvation are clearly from the Bible. You seem to imply that none of their beliefs originate in the Bible which is clearly false.
For instance - When it comes to the matter of salvation, here is the false, unbiblical "gospel" the JWs believe:

Watchtower 12/15/67 p.753, 754 "What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago? This, namely, the birth of God's Messianic kingdom in the heavens at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914...God's Messianic kingdom was indeed born in the heavens at the due time in 1914 and the "this good news of the kingdom" means the fresh, brand new information that tells of God's established kingdom." Watchtower 5/1/81 p.17
What's wrong with any of this? It might not be in the Bible but I don't see how it contradicts anything in the Bible.
 
I see nothing in that quotation in the OP that states or implies that the JWs don't get their beliefs from the Bible. It says that you cannot arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible. Obviously many people read the Bible without necessarily arriving at their sect's beliefs. I checked the context of that quotation, and here it is from the article How Can We Respond Unselfishly to God’s Love?:

So we see that the JWs are saying that you need the Watchtower to arrive at the beliefs of the JWs and not that they don't get their beliefs from the Bible.
I agree. Just like other cults.
 
What is "open admission and declaration"?

Everybody has beliefs that aren't in the Bible or beliefs that somebody else says are not in the Bible. The Jehovah's witnesses are no different in that regard.

Perhaps, but their beliefs in Christ and salvation are clearly from the Bible. You seem to imply that none of their beliefs originate in the Bible which is clearly false.

What's wrong with any of this? It might not be in the Bible but I don't see how it contradicts anything in the Bible.

Regarding your question - The open admission and declaration is the quote. Go back and re-read it as many times as needed. It is stating that a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (regarding God, Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do. This means that JW beliefs do not come from the Bible.

As for your idea of, "JWs are no different from others" - You are quite wrong, and here's how and why that's true: The JW "leader" have claimed for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who..
- were appointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.

NONE of these 4 totally exclusive and totally condemning of ALL others things have ANY biblical support at all. They are nothing but (extremely arrogant) self-claims.
And before you try to say or imply the idea that "all churches do the same" - No, that is simply not true. In fact, it is a flat out lie. Over the years, I've been involved in Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nondenominational, Assemblies of God churches. NONE of them make the totally exclusive and condemning of ALL others self-claims that the JWs do.

And no - JW beliefs regarding Christ and salvation are clearly NOT from the Bible. That's been shown. Re-read my previous post as many times as needed.

Regarding your last question - Re-read the quotes by the JW "leaders". They admit to adding things to the Gospel that Christ and the apostles NEVER preached. JWs preach a "different gospel". Now re-read what the Apostle Paul says regarding those who do this - Is there approval or condemnation for this?

As for your last statement - Re-read the last two sections of my previous post. There is just no mild way to say this: That you see no contradiction between what JWs say and what the Bible says regarding salvation shows significant personal ignorance of both what the JW "leaders" say regarding salvation and what the Bible says regarding salvation.
 
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I agree. Just like other cults.
What's wrong with a Christian organization saying that you need them to know what their beliefs are and that you can't arrive at those beliefs by simply reading the Bible? I can't know what your beliefs are by reading the Bible, and it would be unfair for me to conclude that you're a member of a cult for that reason. The Bible is a very large and difficult book written over a period of centuries by dozens of authors in languages few people speak today. It is then only reasonable that different sects will interpret it differently, and that includes the Jehovah's Witnesses. I think that the quotation in the OP reflects this fact. The way Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible won't necessarily be evident from just reading the Bible. That's true for all Christian sects.
 
Regarding your question - The open admission and declaration is the quote. Go back and re-read it as many times as needed. It is stating that a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (regarding God, Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do. This means that JW beliefs do not come from the Bible.
This comparison is perhaps our main bone of contention. Let's look at the two statements side-by-side:
  1. ...a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (regarding God, Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do.
  2. ...JW beliefs do not come from the Bible.
As I see it, the inability of a person to arrive at the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses by reading the Bible (as stated in 1) could well result from the way the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible. So their beliefs might "come from the Bible" (contrary to statement 2) but based on their unusual interpretation, it is not likely that a lone Bible reader would end up interpreting the Bible the same way. So 2 does not follow from 1.

As for your idea of, "JWs are no different from others" - You are quite wrong...
If I really said what you say I said, then obviously I would be wrong; But you quoted me out of context. Here's what I actually posted:
Everybody has beliefs that aren't in the Bible or beliefs that somebody else says are not in the Bible. The Jehovah's witnesses are no different in that regard.
You omitted that first sentence which happens to be an important fact and is necessary to read in order to understand what I meant in the second sentence.
, and here's how and why that's true: The JW "leader" have claimed for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who..
- were appointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
They might be right! What's wrong with any of those claims? What you've posted here could have come from Paul's epistles or Jesus himself.
And before you try to say or imply the idea that "all churches do the same" - No, that is simply not true. In fact, it is a flat out lie. Over the years, I've been involved in Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nondenominational, Assemblies of God churches. NONE of them make the totally exclusive and condemning of ALL others self-claims that the JWs do.
Uh--you're a Christian, are you not? The fact is that Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nondenominational, Assemblies of God and other churches do claim that Christianity is totally exclusive and condemning of all other religions. So if doing so is appropriate for Christendom, then why is it so wrong for the Jehovah's Witnesses?
And no - JW beliefs regarding Christ and salvation are clearly NOT from the Bible. That's been shown.
Can you post an example of one of those beliefs?
Re-read my previous post as many times as needed.
It does take multiple readings to get it.
Regarding your last question - Re-read the quotes by the JW "leaders". They admit to adding things to the Gospel that Christ and the apostles NEVER preached.
What's wrong with that? Many Christians believe in the Trinity, yet it's not in the Bible. Christ and the apostles never preached it. It is a doctrine added later by the Church.
JWs preach a "different gospel". Now re-read what the Apostle Paul says regarding those who do this - Is there approval or condemnation for this?
What passage?
There is just no mild way to say this: That you see no contradiction between what JWs say and what the Bible says regarding salvation shows significant personal ignorance of both what the JW "leaders" say regarding salvation and what the Bible says regarding salvation.
If all else fails, then try a personal attack!
 
Answers by me will be preceded by **.


Regarding your question - The open admission and declaration is the quote. Go back and re-read it as many times as needed. It is stating that a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (regarding God, Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do. This means that JW beliefs do not come from the Bible.
This comparison is perhaps our main bone of contention. Let's look at the two statements side-by-side:
  1. ...a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (regarding God, Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do.
  2. ...JW beliefs do not come from the Bible.
As I see it, the inability of a person to arrive at the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses by reading the Bible (as stated in 1) could well result from the way the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible. So their beliefs might "come from the Bible" (contrary to statement 2) but based on their unusual interpretation, it is not likely that a lone Bible reader would end up interpreting the Bible the same way. So 2 does not follow from 1.
** With all due respect, how you see it doesn't look to be anything more than you tossing out imagined ideas/theories. I'm not dealing with imaginary theories; I'm dealing with an actual, official quote. Re-read the quote as many times as you need to. The word "we" that is used in the quote obviously doesn't refer to "a lone Bible reader" as you write - it refers to ALL JWs - That's who it's written TO. The word "never" that is used in the quote means "not ever." A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (about God, about Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter hw much Bible reading they do. The honest conclusion from that is that JW beliefs don't come from the Bible, they come from outside of the Bible. Therefore, it is not "a matter of interpretation" as you suggest....and I point out again that all you're doing with that is suggesting an imagined theory that you may wish to believe but is not substantiated in any real way. The quote says what it says and means what it means.

As for your idea of, "JWs are no different from others" - You are quite wrong...
If I really said what you say I said, then obviously I would be wrong; But you quoted me out of context. Here's what I actually posted:
Everybody has beliefs that aren't in the Bible or beliefs that somebody else says are not in the Bible. The Jehovah's witnesses are no different in that regard.
You omitted that first sentence which happens to be an important fact and is necessary to read in order to understand what I meant in the second sentence.
** It is your second sentence that is most important - and in my previous post, I answered as to why it is not true.

, and here's how and why that's true: The JW "leader" have claimed for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who..
- were appointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
They might be right! What's wrong with any of those claims? What you've posted here could have come from Paul's epistles or Jesus himself.
** No, they are NOT right - And that has already been shown. And let's get VERY real about this - Your assertion "They might be right" is just mere, imagined and unsubstantiated argumentation on your part - Nothing more. And what's wrong is that it has already been shown that their beliefs are not biblical. And no, Paul NEVER made HIMSELF personally "the determining factor" regarding a person's salvation.

And before you try to say or imply the idea that "all churches do the same" - No, that is simply not true. In fact, it is a flat out lie. Over the years, I've been involved in Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nondenominational, Assemblies of God churches. NONE of them make the totally exclusive and condemning of ALL others self-claims that the JWs do.
Uh--you're a Christian, are you not? The fact is that Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nondenominational, Assemblies of God and other churches do claim that Christianity is totally exclusive and condemning of all other religions. So if doing so is appropriate for Christendom, then why is it so wrong for the Jehovah's Witnesses?
** Because what JWs believe and teach does not come from the Bible nor is it "Christian". This has already been shown. The JWs are a non-Christian cult.

And no - JW beliefs regarding Christ and salvation are clearly NOT from the Bible. That's been shown.
Can you post an example of one of those beliefs?
** I've already provided more than one example in previous posts.

Re-read my previous post as many times as needed.
It does take multiple readings to get it.
Regarding your last question - Re-read the quotes by the JW "leaders". They admit to adding things to the Gospel that Christ and the apostles NEVER preached.
What's wrong with that? Many Christians believe in the Trinity, yet it's not in the Bible. Christ and the apostles never preached it. It is a doctrine added later by the Church.
** Nope. The Church did not "add" the Trinity. And I remind you again that the focus of my posts and the focus of this Board is on the beliefs of the JWs. If you wish to debate Christian beliefs with Christians, you need to go to another board.

JWs preach a "different gospel". Now re-read what the Apostle Paul says regarding those who do this - Is there approval or condemnation for this?
What passage?
** It is Galatians 1:8-9.

There is just no mild way to say this: That you see no contradiction between what JWs say and what the Bible says regarding salvation shows significant personal ignorance of both what the JW "leaders" say regarding salvation and what the Bible says regarding salvation.
If all else fails, then try a personal attack!
** No - What I wrote is what your posts are showing - Repeatedly. What I wrote is 100% based on the "content" of your posts.




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** With all due respect, how you see it doesn't look to be anything more than you tossing out imagined ideas/theories. I'm not dealing with imaginary theories; I'm dealing with an actual, official quote. Re-read the quote as many times as you need to.
I quoted the same material from the Watchtower but in context. I already explained that there's nothing in that quotation or its context that states or implies that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't get any of their beliefs from the Bible. Heck, they have their own Bible version which you can read in its entirety off their official website. True, they may have some beliefs that don't originate in the Bible, but everybody has such beliefs including yourself.

And since you like quotations from the Jehovah's Witnesses so much, here's one from their article Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Changed the Bible to Fit Their Beliefs? that's quite clear:
...when we have discovered that our beliefs were not completely in line with the Bible, we have changed our beliefs.
I do hope I don't need to explain that one to you.
The word "we" that is used in the quote obviously doesn't refer to "a lone Bible reader" as you write - it refers to ALL JWs - That's who it's written TO. The word "never" that is used in the quote means "not ever." A person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (about God, about Christ, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter hw much Bible reading they do. The honest conclusion from that is that JW beliefs don't come from the Bible, they come from outside of the Bible. Therefore, it is not "a matter of interpretation" as you suggest....and I point out again that all you're doing with that is suggesting an imagined theory that you may wish to believe but is not substantiated in any real way. The quote says what it says and means what it means.
I'm not imagining anything. I've studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and we on occasion we used both the New World Translation as well as other versions. They cited Bible passages that they use as the basis for their beliefs. I agreed with their interpretations sometimes and disagreed with their interpretations other times, but every time I saw that they get their beliefs from the Bible.

I think that the underlying issue here is the Bible itself. It's a huge and strange set of books whose ambiguity has set so many people at odds with each other all claiming to be right regarding what it "really says." The Jehovah's Witnesses are just one more Christian sect who happen to have an unpopular interpretation of the Bible. But rather than admit the obvious reason for all this confusion, "Bible idolaters" blame anybody who comes up with an interpretation they cannot stomach, call that group a "cult," and then deny that that group's beliefs come from "the Bible."

Whose Bible?
 
I quoted the same material from the Watchtower but in context. I already explained that there's nothing in that quotation or its context that states or implies that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't get any of their beliefs from the Bible. Heck, they have their own Bible version which you can read in its entirety off their official website. True, they may have some beliefs that don't originate in the Bible, but everybody has such beliefs including yourself.

And since you like quotations from the Jehovah's Witnesses so much, here's one from their article Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Changed the Bible to Fit Their Beliefs? that's quite clear:

I do hope I don't need to explain that one to you.

I'm not imagining anything. I've studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and we on occasion we used both the New World Translation as well as other versions. They cited Bible passages that they use as the basis for their beliefs. I agreed with their interpretations sometimes and disagreed with their interpretations other times, but every time I saw that they get their beliefs from the Bible.

I think that the underlying issue here is the Bible itself. It's a huge and strange set of books whose ambiguity has set so many people at odds with each other all claiming to be right regarding what it "really says." The Jehovah's Witnesses are just one more Christian sect who happen to have an unpopular interpretation of the Bible. But rather than admit the obvious reason for all this confusion, "Bible idolaters" blame anybody who comes up with an interpretation they cannot stomach, call that group a "cult," and then deny that that group's beliefs come from "the Bible."

Whose Bible?

What you quoted doesn't change at all the meaning of the section I quoted. You may believe it does if you wish.

Regarding the article - Considering the fact that the JW "leaders" have stated that whatever they write is to be received, believed, and followed as coming from God, then the fact that they have had to change their beliefs as often as they have had to do shows and proves that this is simply not true.
Consider what another poster wrote about this: What if you have been told all of your life that doctrine A is true, and that it is supported by scripture. Assume that you have read those scriptures and that you agree that those scriptures do indeed support doctrine A.

Now suppose that tomorrow you are told that there is “new light”, and that doctrine A is no longer true, but that doctrine B has taken its place. The scriptures you once thought supported doctrine A are no longer relevant or true. Instead, a whole new set of scripture references are given that supposedly support doctrine B. Would you be disfellowshipped if you stick to doctrine A?

And to make things worse, what if sometime in the future you are told that because of even more “new light” that doctrine B is no longer true, but that doctrine A was true after all? Is “old light” sometimes better than “new light”?


Here is an example of JWs having to change their beliefs: JWs are very much noted for their multiple predictions of Armageddon and the end of things. Here is just one of those:
From Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15 (over 50 years ago): "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years... Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

Notice how this was very confidently presented as FACTS:
You WILL NEVER GROW OLD in this present system of things.
You WILL NEVER FULFILL ANY CAREER in this present system.
Why not? Because, according to this, ALL the evidence in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy indicates that this corrupt system would end in just a few years. No sense going to college or seeking a career, because by 1973 or 1975 or 1977 this system "will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

So – How old were you when this false prediction was made?
The people who were "young persons" at the time - say 14-15 - are now in their late 60s.
Many of them have grandchildren now.
Some have great-grandchildren.

That prediction was made by people who believed and still believe and teach (this is a required belief for JWs) that they are the only, ONLY organization that was appointed by God and that has His approval and is used by Him; the only, ONLY organization that serves as God's prophets, and that what they write comes directly from God.
"You WILL NEVER GROW OLD in this present system of things."
"You WILL NEVER FULFILL ANY CAREER in this present system."
This was all presented very confidently as FACTS coming directly from God.
And that prediction was totally and completely 100% FALSEHOOD.

And here's the thing about that: If the JW "leaders" come out with another prediction about Armageddon in their next publication, it will be swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the JW masses with no questioning or challenging - Because it is required for them to do so. It doesn't really matter what the JW "leaders" say - Whatever it is, is to be received, believed and obeyed as coming from God - because the JW "leaders" have stated this is so. I very much recommend that you literally spend some serious time thinking about that position and the implications of it in terms of the length and breadth and depth of power and control this gives the JW "leaders" over the JW masses.

As for the NWT, it is not regarded as being legitimate by any recognized translation scholar. It is rightly regarded as being a perversion created by the JWs to support their false beliefs. It is historical fact that JW beliefs came first, and then a "bible" was created to support them. I submit that you need to do some honest research yourself on the history and accuracy of the NWT.

As for your section on the Bible itself - All you've done there is make imagined and unsubstantiated assertions. You may wish to believe them, but that's all they are. No, the JWs are not "a Christian sect" with "an unpopular interpretation" (how very minimizing) as you write. They have a false, unbiblical Christ and a false unbiblical way of salvation and multiple other falsehoods. Anytime an honest person does a comparison study between what JWs believe and what the Bible says and shows will very, very easily see this. For instance - When it comes to the Person of Christ, JWs believe He is really the archangel Michael. Nope - That is simply not true and here's how and why: For one thing, Michael would never make the self-declarations that Christ makes in places such as John 12:45 and 14:7-9. For another - Michael would never receive for Himself the declaration of Thomas in John 29:28. JW belief also goes directly against what John wrote about Christ in his Prologue (1:1-18). It also goes directly against what the Apostle Paul wrote in multiple places. It also goes directly against what the writer of Hebrews says in chapter 1.

Here is just one example of what I mean: Look up Romans 10:13. Paul is citing Joel 2:32, a passage about Jehovah, and attributes it to someone in Romans 10:13 (ie. he is calling someone Jehovah). So who is the referent, who is Paul calling Jehovah in Romans 10:13?

Allow me to answer my own question: The context of Romans 10 is that of Christ - He is the subject. In verse 13, Paul takes the verse in Joel and directly applies it to Christ - thus calling Christ GOD. Anyone can look this up on their own very easily. Honest readers understand that that is precisely what Paul is declaring there. In verses 9, 12, and 13, "Lord" is a translation of the Greek word kyrios, and verse 9 clearly associates "Lord" with Jesus. The same association continues in verses 12 and 13. But verse 13 is a quote of Joel 2:32, where the Hebrew text clearly shows Yahweh. This means that Jesus is the "Lord" in verse 12 who is called upon, and in verse 13 Paul connects this "Lord" (Jesus) with Joel 2:32's Yahweh. This indicates that Jesus is truly the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh). JWs have no answer for this fact.
 
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What you quoted doesn't change at all the meaning of the section I quoted. You may believe it does if you wish.
I do believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses have said that what they believe is from the Bible although they allow for some exceptions if errors are made. Those errors if revealed are corrected. That sounds pretty darned reasonable, realistic, and honest to me. The Christian sects to look out for are the sects who are too proud to admit error implying that they perfectly understand and interpret the Bible and always have.
Regarding the article - Considering the fact that the JW "leaders" have stated that whatever they write is to be received, believed, and followed as coming from God...
Is what your sect writes not from God?
...then the fact that they have had to change their beliefs as often as they have had to do shows and proves that this is simply not true.
Using that same criteria to judge truth, all of Christendom is simply not true. The changes made from the Old Testament to the New dwarf any changes in Watchtower theology. Change in beliefs can be good if those changes involve error correction like I explain above.

In any case, these attacks on Jehovah's Witnesses are reminiscent of the Inquisition attacking what the pope deemed to be heretical groups. Today we still have Christians calling themselves bearers of the truth judging every doctrine they disagree with as false.
 
What is "open admission and declaration"?

Everybody has beliefs that aren't in the Bible or beliefs that somebody else says are not in the Bible. The Jehovah's witnesses are no different in that regard.

Perhaps, but their beliefs in Christ and salvation are clearly from the Bible. You seem to imply that none of their beliefs originate in the Bible which is clearly false.

What's wrong with any of this? It might not be in the Bible but I don't see how it contradicts anything in the Bible.
Prove you are not AI. Make an open admission and declaration.
 
I do believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses have said that what they believe is from the Bible although they allow for some exceptions if errors are made. Those errors if revealed are corrected. That sounds pretty darned reasonable, realistic, and honest to me. The Christian sects to look out for are the sects who are too proud to admit error implying that they perfectly understand and interpret the Bible and always have.

Is what your sect writes not from God?

Using that same criteria to judge truth, all of Christendom is simply not true. The changes made from the Old Testament to the New dwarf any changes in Watchtower theology. Change in beliefs can be good if those changes involve error correction like I explain above.

In any case, these attacks on Jehovah's Witnesses are reminiscent of the Inquisition attacking what the pope deemed to be heretical groups. Today we still have Christians calling themselves bearers of the truth judging every doctrine they disagree with as false.

No, what JWs believe is not from the Bible. The quote shows and proves that. As for your idea of "errors" - Feel free to produce real, actual EVIDENCE via real, actual quotes whereby the JW "leaders" have ever openly and honestly admitted "We were wrong" about what they believe and teach. That simply does not happen. When error occurs, what happens is that "new light" comes where the original declaration or prediction gets re-written in order to cover the error with something else. That is not the same as admission of error.

As for your assertion of, "
Using that same criteria to judge truth, all of Christendom is simply not true. The changes made from the Old Testament to the New dwarf any changes in Watchtower theology.
Nope - All you have done here is merely posted imagined and unsubstantiated assertions again. Same is true your final section.

And I note that - along with avoiding engaging with what another poster wrote about JWs changing their beliefs,
and also avoiding engaging with the example given of a totally false prediction,
and also avoiding engaging with the challenge put to you I wrote after that,
and also avoiding engaging with the facts regarding the NWT,
you totally avoid engaging with what Paul writes in Romans 10 which VERY much disproves JW belief and teaching regarding Christ.

Between your multiple avoidances and your multiple imagined and unsubstantiated assertions/accusations, I believe it is reasonable to wonder if continued discussion with you is warranted. With every post you make, it increasingly does not look to be so. I invite you to very seriously consider not pursuing things any further.
 
No, what JWs believe is not from the Bible. The quote shows and proves that. As for your idea of "errors" - Feel free to produce real, actual EVIDENCE via real, actual quotes whereby the JW "leaders" have ever openly and honestly admitted "We were wrong" about what they believe and teach.
After only a minute or so found what you asked for. From Be Big Enough to Admit a Mistake we read:
In striking contrast to the position taken by the popes is that taken by the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. They readily admit to having made mistakes as to doctrine and worship. Thus for a time, in common with Christendom, they celebrated Christmas until they learned of its pagan origin. Then again, because Romans 13:1 had been construed to mean that the governments of the world must be given unqualified obedience, the Witnesses interpreted the ‘higher powers’ or “superior authorities” there mentioned as applying to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. However, a closer examination of the context revealed that Romans 13:1 does indeed refer to the political governments of this world. But by comparing this scripture with others, such as Acts 5:29, which states, “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” it was seen that the “subjection” mentioned at Romans 13:1 must be a relative subjection, not an unqualified one. That is, Christians are to be in subjection to the governments of this world so long as these do not ask Christians to go contrary to God’s laws. When such governments do, then the Christian must obey the higher law.—Acts 4:19, 20.
So read it and weep--you falsely accused the Jehovah's Witnesses of not admitting error. And note that they cite the Bible to base their beliefs on--more proof that you are wrong about them.
That simply does not happen. When error occurs, what happens is that "new light" comes where the original declaration or prediction gets re-written in order to cover the error with something else. That is not the same as admission of error.
I wonder if your admission of error will happen.

I'm no supporter of the Watchtower, and I disagree with them on many issues, but I just won't stand by while they are libeled. What you've posted is bearing false witness against the Witnesses.
 
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