ADMISSION: JW Beliefs Don't Come From The Bible

[imJRR]

I also point out that you have failed to engage in any meaningful way with what was said and shown in Post #48.

That's probably because that post is very verbose, and I've already demonstrated that the Jehovah's Witnesses do get their core beliefs from the Bible.

* Nope - The posting history shows that you have not actually "demonstrated" any such thing. You can imagine you have if you want, but any honest person with even a modicum of reading comprehension ability can very, very easily see for themselves that you really haven't; and I'm very content for any honest reader to do just that. As for my post being verbose - LOL! That is a statement showing either avoidance due to inability to make an adequate response to what I wrote, or just plain laziness. Either way - You fail.

For instance:
It has already been established that the JW "leaders" have claimed and declared for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who..
- were appointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.

You can say the same thing for Paul. He was made God's prophet by Jesus with no "Biblical support." And as Paul made very clear, those who competed against him were "accursed." So the Jehovah's Witnesses are in line with the Bible in that regard. Besides, it's a lie to say the Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the only ones appointed by God. They revere William Tyndale, for example, for translating the Bible.

* No you cannot say the same thing - not honestly - and here's why that's true:
First of all - Yes, Paul actually WAS appointed by Christ and had Christ's approval and support and he gave evidence of that in his life and teaching and the miracles he performed. For the JW masters there is NO such evidence - In fact, what evidence there is shows the exact opposite of their being the ONLY prophet appointed by God.
Formal Challenge: If they're a true prophet of God, then go ahead and explain their false, unbiblical Christ, their false, unbiblical way of salvation (which was already shown in one of my posts that you did not have an adequate answer for), their multiple false predictions, and their open admission that a person cannot and will not ever arrive at JW beliefs (about God, Christ, the kingdom, and so on) by reading the Bible no matter how much Bible reading they do. Their admission - besides admitting that JW beliefs do not come from the Bible - means that the Bible is irrelevant and meaningless for JWs. It is what the JW masters say, not what the Bible says, that is ultimate authority and truth for JWs.

- are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.

But that's what you say about the Jehovah's Witnesses: they are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on. Why are they wrong for saying so and you right?

* You're wrong again - BIG TIME. I have NEVER made the claims for myself that the JW masters claim for themselves:
- I have NEVER said that a person's attitude toward and treatment of me, personally, will be "the determining factor" as to whether a person will receive eternal life.
- I have NEVER said that a person MUST become a member of my church in order to have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day.
- I have NEVER said that anyone and everyone who is not part of the church I attend is false, wrong, apostate of Satan, and so on.
But these three totally exclusive and condemning of all others things - and more - are all claims the JW masters make for themselves. The comparison idea you have tried to foist is a laughable failure.

* As for why they're wrong, all any honest person needs to do is a comparison study between JW beliefs and what the Bible says and shows. JWs deny and reject the Deity of Christ and believe that Christ is a created being (angel), and that after dying His body was dissolved into gasses and He arose an invisible spirit creature who then became an angel again.
And then there's their whole 1914 doctrine concerning Christ. This is not merely unbiblical and false - It's totally man-made up. So are all the JW doctrines that come from it.
Go ahead - TRY to find those beliefs in the Bible.

- are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth - they are God's prophets - and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.

That's what Christianity as a whole says. You criticize your own beliefs.

* Reality Check: This isn't about "Christianity as a whole." If you wish to debate Christian beliefs with Christians, you need to follow the moderator's directive and go to another board.

- are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.

That's what Christianity as a whole says.

* Reality Check: We are not talking about "Christianity as a whole" - we are talking about one specific group whose beliefs are definitely NOT Christian beliefs. And how many times do you need to be reminded? If you wish to debate Christian beliefs with Christians, then follow the moderator's directive and go to another board.

NONE of these 4 totally exclusive and totally condemning of ALL others declarations have ANY biblical support at all. They are NOT found in the Bible ANYWHERE. They are nothing but (extremely arrogant) self-claims.

LOL--I'm wondering what Bible version you are reading. Claims of exclusive appointments from God are throughout the Bible as well as condemnation of religious adversaries. No doubt the Jehovah's Witnesses get all of that directly out of the Bible.

* In the Bible, those who were genuinely appointed by God had and gave evidence to show that. The JW masters have nothing of the sort. That means there's a HUGE difference between the two things.

That's just one of the things you have failed to engage with in any meaningful way.

I have now, and I don't believe for a minute that all the facts I've posted will be accepted by you. You appear to be completely in the dark about both the Watchtower and the Bible. If any Jehovah's Witnesses read what you've posted, then they'll feel vindicated knowing just how wrong their critics are.

LOL! Your first three words above are just self-deception. Your posts contain nothing that can honestly or truthfully be called facts - You've only posted assertions and accusations. Your attempts to provide biblical proof for JW beliefs are just plain failures. You've also tried multiple times to change the subject to Christian beliefs. And you've also avoided challenges given in posts - either due to inability or just plain laziness. Your posting history leaves a LOT to be desired.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

LOL! Your first three words above are just self-deception. Your posts contain nothing that can honestly or truthfully be called facts - You've only posted assertions and accusations. Your attempts to provide biblical proof for JW beliefs are just plain failures. You've also tried multiple times to change the subject to Christian beliefs. And you've also avoided challenges given in posts - either due to inability or just plain laziness. Your posting history leaves a LOT to be desired.

Hmmm. Something makes me think I'm wasting my time trying to use reason and presentation of relevant facts. Truth, it appears, is optional for some people.

In any case, if anybody here is interested in the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses, then let me know and I'll let you know what I know about them. They're obsessed with the Bible, and they believe almost everything they do is based in scripture.

 

[imJRR]

The posting history shows that you haven't presented anything that can honestly be called "facts".
- You've presented mere denials.
- You've presented mere assertions and accusations.
- Your attempts to provide biblical proof for JW beliefs are just plain failures.
- You've also tried multiple times to change the subject to Christian beliefs.
- And you've also avoided engaging with refutations and challenges given in my posts - either due to inability or just plain laziness.

And I'm very content for any honest and fair-minded reader to read our posts and decide for themselves about this.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The posting history shows that you haven't presented anything that can honestly be called "facts".
- You've presented mere denials.
- You've presented mere assertions and accusations.
- Your attempts to provide biblical proof for JW beliefs are just plain failures.
- You've also tried multiple times to change the subject to Christian beliefs.
- And you've also avoided engaging with refutations and challenges given in my posts - either due to inability or just plain laziness.

And I'm very content for any honest and fair-minded reader to read our posts and decide for themselves about this.

I agree that those interested in the relation between Watchtower doctrines and the Bible read our posts on this thread. But I'd also strongly urge interested persons to further investigate the matter by visiting JW.org to see what the Jehovah's Witnesses say about their beliefs and the Bible. Another rich source of information is in-person visits and Bible studies with Jehovah's Witnesses which you can arrange edit per mod . They'll be happy to discuss with you the source(s) of their doctrines.

In any case, we might disagree with the Jehovah's Witnesses and their interpretations of scripture, but that's not the same as saying they are not influenced by the Bible.

 

[imJRR]

Oh, yes - JWs are always glad for the opportunities to promote their false and unbiblical beliefs.

 

[imJRR]

I agree that those interested in the relation between Watchtower doctrines and the Bible read our posts on this thread. But I'd also strongly urge interested persons to further investigate the matter by visiting  EDITED to see what the Jehovah's Witnesses say about their beliefs and the Bible. Another rich source of information is in-person visits and Bible studies with Jehovah's Witnesses which you can arrange EDITED . They'll be happy to discuss with you the source(s) of their doctrines.

In any case, we might disagree with the Jehovah's Witnesses and their interpretations of scripture, but that's not the same as saying they are not influenced by the Bible.

There are plenty of information articles here at CARM that VERY accurately describe the false and not-biblical beliefs of the JWs.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Oh, yes - JWs are always glad for the opportunities to promote their false and unbiblical beliefs.

Everybody--PLEASE--do the research to see what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and where they get their beliefs. You can start with their article regarding their belief that Jesus Is Resurrected. Is that belief false and unbiblical?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

There are plenty of information articles here at CARM that VERY accurately describe the false and not-biblical beliefs of the JWs.

Start with the CARM article: The Lord’s Supper and the 144,000 Anointed Class of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Where does the article say that the Jehovah's Witnesses get their belief in communion?

 

[imJRR]

Good reference. The very first three sentences in "The Lord's Supper and the 144,000" show that JW beliefs are not biblical but man-made up. And the rest of the article shows that very well also.
Thank you for providing a link to a GREAT information article here at CARM that VERY accurately describes the false and not-biblical beliefs of the JWs.

As for the Resurrection of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses and their official organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, have historically denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and have maintained that His was a "spirit" or "spiritual" resurrection. To quote the Watchtower:

"The King, Christ Jesus, was put to death in the flesh and was resurrected an invisible spirit creature." 1

Further developing their teaching, the Witnesses proclaim: "In His resurrection He was no more human. He was raised as a spirit creature." 2

In addition to this, the Watchtower has even suggested that Christ's body was "dissolved into gases" or "preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God's love." 3

References:

1. Let God Be True, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 122, Edition 1946.

2. The Kingdom is at Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 258.

3. Studies in the Scripture, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 129, Vol 2.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Good reference. The very first three sentences in "The Lord's Supper and the 144,000" show that JW beliefs are not biblical but man-made up. And the rest of the article shows that very well also.
Thank you for providing a link to a GREAT information article here at CARM that VERY accurately describes the false and not-biblical beliefs of the JWs.

Here's the first three sentences of that article:

The Jehovah’s Witness organization teaches that not all members of their group can take communion. Only the 144,000 members called the “anointed class” have the right to take Communion, and they are the only ones who go to heaven.1 In fact, the 144,000 “anointed class” within the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones who are “born again.”

Contrary to what you say, there's nothing in these sentences that suggests anything that is "not biblical but man-made up."

And you didn't answer my question about where the article says Jehovah's Witnesses get their belief in communion. The article documents that it is John 6:53-54.

And in case you don't know, John 6:53-54 is in the Bible.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Unknown Soldier,

I find it interesting that you mention three JW teachings that I consider to be wrong. The Bible teaches the bodily resurrection of Jesus. The JWs teach that the faithful should remember the Lord's Supper only every year, but I suggest that it is obvious that the First Century believers remembered this each week. And part of the difference here is that ALL the believers partook of the bread and wine each week, not just a select few. Once a year the bread and wine are passed along the row in their Kingdom Halls, and the closest the vast majority of JWs ever get is they may possibly smell the aroma of the wine. This proves that they are not in fellowship with Jesus and his sacrifice.

And the unique JW teaching of the 144,000 is a misunderstanding of Revelation 7, and to suggest that only these and the GB go to heaven while most JWs stay on the earth is a rejection of the ONE Hope of the Gospel. These are all associated with some aspect of the Bible, but they ALL are like half-truths, similar to the way the serpent used a mixture of speculation and also used Scripture incorrectly in the Garden.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[imJRR]

Here are the first three sentences of that article:

The Jehovah’s Witness organization teaches that not all members of their group can take communion. Only the 144,000 members called the “anointed class” have the right to take Communion, and they are the only ones who go to heaven.1 In fact, the 144,000 “anointed class” within the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones who are “born again.”

You wrote: Contrary to what you say, there's nothing in these sentences that suggests anything that is "not biblical but man-made up."


** Regarding your comment above: Formal Challenge - Provide the real, actual, biblical substantiation for the following JW beliefs:
- that the 144,000 are indeed JWs. Show this from a biblical text that really does say and prove this. Because JWs merely claiming "This applies to US and to our Anointed Class" does not make it automatically true.
- that they are JWs of some sort of "anointed class".
- that they are the only ones who are "born again."
- that they are the only ones who are able to take communion.
- they they are the only ones who go to heaven.
Produce the Scriptures that actually DO verify that above 5 JW beliefs are actually and truly biblical truth.
Because otherwise, there is absolutely NO reason NOT to say that those beliefs are "not biblical but man-made up."

You wrote: And you didn't answer my question about where the article says Jehovah's Witnesses get their belief in communion. The article documents that it is John 6:53-54.
And in case you don't know, John 6:53-54 is in the Bible.

Formal Challenge: Feel free to try to show and prove the following from John 6:53-54:
- that it has anything to do with the JW beliefs regarding the 144,000.
- that it has anything to do with them being the only ones who deserve to take communion.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Greetings Unknown Soldier,

Hi Trevor! Thanks for being civil. Those who insult those who disagree with them follow a false Christ--the true Jesus taught us to love our enemies.

I find it interesting that you mention three JW teachings that I consider to be wrong. The Bible teaches the bodily resurrection of Jesus. The JWs teach that the faithful should remember the Lord's Supper only every year, but I suggest that it is obvious that the First Century believers remembered this each week. And part of the difference here is that ALL the believers partook of the bread and wine each week, not just a select few. Once a year the bread and wine are passed along the row in their Kingdom Halls, and the closest the vast majority of JWs ever get is they may possibly smell the aroma of the wine. This proves that they are not in fellowship with Jesus and his sacrifice.

And the unique JW teaching of the 144,000 is a misunderstanding of Revelation 7, and to suggest that only these and the GB go to heaven while most JWs stay on the earth is a rejection of the ONE Hope of the Gospel. These are all associated with some aspect of the Bible, but they ALL are like half-truths, similar to the way the serpent used a mixture of speculation and also used Scripture incorrectly in the Garden.

I think you are missing my point. I'm not arguing if Watchtower beliefs are factually right or wrong. Rather, I'm responding to the OP's allegation that the beliefs held by Jehovah's Witnesses don't come the Bible. Their

Kind regards
Trevor

You too!