"All men" and "World"

Theo1689

Well-known member
I was cleaning up my hard drive yesterday, and found a document that I was working on which addressed the meaning of "all men" in Scripture. As mentioned in my other thread from today, if one wants to convince another of a particular meaning of a Scripture, then they must acknowledge other possible meanings, and give compelling reasons why the alternative meaning is not the correct meaning. If one cannot do this to the satisfaction of all parties, then this destroys the verse as a "proof-text", as you are reduced to "special pleading", and saying, "This verse means what *I* say it does, because I said so."

I'm going to list a number of sources which disagree with the non-Calvinist interpretation of passages containing "world" and "all men". This is not an "appeal to authority", because I'm not arguing that what they say is true "because I say so".

The point here is there are a number of scholars who hold the view, making it a valid one which needs to be addressed with something more substantial than an empty, "nuh-Huh".



"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."
-- Philip Comfort

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."
-- A.T. Robertson

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"
-- Albert Barnes


I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.
-- John Wesley

"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."
-- Bible Knowledge Commentary

"I will draw all men to myself.
The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"
-- John Calvin

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."
-- Barton W. Johnson

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."
-- Adam Clarke

"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg
al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."
-- Murray J. Harr



So it is insufficient to simply make the empty claim, "World means every single individual", or "all men means every single individual". You have to make a VALID argument, not simply assume it.

And you have to be VERY careful not to twist the words of others to try to force them to agree with you. But I know a few here (by name) who will do EXACTLY that, and refuse to let scholars speak for themselves.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
The point here is there are a number of scholars who hold the view, making it a valid one ...
Or, you can simply believe the original Scholar which stated 'all men', as in:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
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TomFL

Guest
So it is insufficient to simply make the empty claim, "World means every single individual", or "all men means every single individual". You have to make a VALID argument, not simply assume it.

And you have to be VERY careful not to twist the words of others to try to force them to agree with you. But I know a few here (by name) who will do EXACTLY that, and refuse to let scholars speak for themselves.
First a valid argument was made concerning world and you Edit per mod.

John 12:47-48 (ESV)

47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

where world obviously includes all unbelievers

and you Edit per mod.

5. the world as mankind
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

Now you cannot assume as you do that world never refers to every single individual or includes more than the Calvinist elect

Edit per mod

Further your quotes are rather selective and you have assumed all men never really means men

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (ESV)
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:2


For kings—As it is a positive maxim of Christianity to pray for all secular governors, so it has ever been the practice of Christians. When St. Cyprian defended himself before the Roman proconsul, he said: Hunc (Deum) deprecamur-pro nobis et pro omnibus hominibus; et pro incolumitate ipsorum Imperatorum. "We pray to God, not only for ourselves, but for all mankind

Who will have all men to be saved—Because he wills the salvation of all men; therefore, he wills that all men should be prayed for. In the face of such a declaration, how can any Christian soul suppose that God ever unconditionally and eternally reprobated any man? Those who can believe so, one would suppose, can have little acquaintance either with the nature of God, or the bowels of Christ.


Adam Clarke's Commentary.




Verse 2. For kings. On the respect due to rulers, Romans 13:1-7. The meaning here is, that while all men should be the subjects of prayer, those should be particularly remembered before the throne of grace who are in authority.

This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of men should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because



(1.) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that "all men" should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.


Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

Who wishes that all men may be saved. Here follows a confirmation of the second argument; and what is more reasonable than that all our prayers should be in conformity with this decree of God?


And may come to the acknowledgment of the truth. Lastly, he demonstrates that God has at heart the salvation of all, because he invites all to the acknowledgment of his truth. This belongs to that kind of argument in which the cause is proved from the effect; for, if


Calvin's Commentaries.


1 Timothy 2:4
Who willeth seriously all men - Not a part only, much less the smallest part. To be saved - Eternally. This is treated of, 1Ti 2:5-6. And, in order thereto, to come - They are not compelled. To the knowledge of the truth - Which brings salvation. This is treated of, 1Ti 2:6-7.

Wesley

2:4. The reason this prayer is acceptable to God is that it is a prayer "according to His will" (1 John 5:14). God, who is by nature a Savior, wants all men to be saved. Paul repeated the words "everyone" (1 Tim. 2:1) and "all men" (vv. 3, 6). The same Greek word (pas, "all") is used in each case, referring all three times to the same group (cf. 4:10). God desires that no one perish (2 Peter 3:9), that the entire human race come to know the truth through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ,


This act is a clear testimony, offered at just the right time (Gal. 4:4-5; Heb. 1:1-2), of God's desire to save all men (cf. Titus 1:3).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Who will have all men to be saved. The Scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved, come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.
B. W. Johnson

1 Tim. 2:4


Willeth (thelei). God's wish and will in so far as he can influence men.





That all men should be saved (pantas anthrōpous sōthēnai). First aorist passive infinitive of sōzō with accusative of general reference. See 1 Cor. 10:33; 2 Cor. 5:18-19.


A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament.


Specially of them that believe (malista pistōn). Making a distinction in the kinds of salvation meant. "While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the pistoi" (White). So Jesus is termed "Saviour of the World" (John 4:42). Cf. Galatians 6:10.


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Theo1689

Well-known member
Or, you can simply believe the original Scholar which stated 'all men', as in:

I do.
But then people like you come along and tell me, "No, it doesn't mean 'all men', it means, 'all INDIVIDUALS'!", even though "the original Scholar" NEVER said, "all INDIVIDUALS".

So yes, I believe the original Scholar over you.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I've already addressed this ten million times.
My response hasn't changed.
You need to go back to the BEGINNING of the CHAPTER to understand that the CONTEXT of this passage is not "universal".
 
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TomFL

Guest
I do.
But then people like you come along and tell me, "No, it doesn't mean 'all men', it means, 'all INDIVIDUALS'!", even though "the original Scholar" NEVER said, "all INDIVIDUALS".

So yes, I believe the original Scholar over you.



I've already addressed this ten million times.
My response hasn't changed.
You need to go back to the BEGINNING of the CHAPTER to understand that the CONTEXT of this passage is not "universal".
Sorry Theo

all men does not mean some men

The noun men is modified by the word all not some

Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The way to read this according to context is all men in the time period from Adam to Moses

You cannot anachronistically read back first century believers in Christ to the period of Adam to Moses

Your argumennt is rather weak and anti contextual
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
...
But "men" doesn't mean "individuals'.
...
You mean like this?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon NOT all INDIVIDUALS, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon NOT all INDIVIDUALS to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon NOT all INDIVIDUALS unto justification of life.
 
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TomFL

Guest
When a dad tells his child to not eat all the cookies, obviously he doesn’t mean “every cookie that was ever made”.
But it does mean every cookie in the context

Not some of the cookies

Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

All men from Adam to Moses died

100%

every single individual
 
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