"All men"

Theo1689

Well-known member
I think all men means every person in the world in these passages. Sin is a refusal to accept that God exists on some level, but God wants everyone to repent. That is affirmed elsewhere in scripture:
But there is no just man on earth, who does good and does not sin. Ecclesiastes 7:21

Well, if you're referring to the passages which speak of everyone having sinned, then I certainly agree with you regarding THOSE passages.

As for "God wants everyone to repent", that's a little more complicated than you seem to think. Certainly everyone is morally OBLIGATED to repent, so God has a judicial expectation for everyone to repent. But we can only repent if God GIVES us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25), and even if you don't believe that, you must surely agree that God KNOWS (based on His foreknowledge) who will repent, and who won't, so it's ridiculous for God to "want" or "wish" or "desire" for someone to repent whom He already knows will NEVER repent.

It's like you holding a lottery ticket, and you still hoping to win even after the numbers have been drawn, and you have lost.

The same is true for the God wanting all people everywhere to come to him, but some are not willing.

If you are alluding to 2 Pet. 3:9, that is only for the "beloved" (v.8), the "us-ward" (v.9).
CONTEXT is key.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone those who have been sent to you. How often I have wanted to gather your children together, in the way that a hen gathers her young under her wings. But you were not willing! Matthew 23:37

You don't seem to understand this verse.
Are you aware that there are THREE groups in play here?
And the group that "were not willing" (ie. the Pharisees) were NOT the same group as teh group Jesus wanted to gather ("your children").
 

Theophilos

Active member
And you CONTINUE to dodge Rev. 5:9.
Why am I not surprised?

Yes. What exactly does Rev. 5:9 have to do with this question?
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev. 5:9 NKJV

Acts is clear that God made all humans so that they should seek God and repent:
He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent . . . Acts 17:26-30 NKJV
 
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TomFL

Guest
The irony is that the above perfectly describes your back and forth on here with others, hour upon hour, nearly every single day of the year.
Except what you failed to mention is the fact I present evidence. lots of evidence not just a child's refrain no you are wrong

While you and a number of your peers produce only bald denials

So it seems you are in denial of the true fact of the matter
 
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TomFL

Guest
<Chuckle>
I see.....

So when you falsely accuse ME of "taking out of context", it's perfectly fine.
But when I (rightly) accuse YOU, it's suddenly "a child's refrain".

Whatever....


I've noticed over the years that many people accuse others of what they are personally guilty of, so when they themselves get (rightly) accused, they can make the same insulting response.

It's quite fascinating, actually...
For some reason you avoided the bulk of my previous reply

'm not ignoring any context.
Quite the contrary, YOU are.

This sounds like a child's refrain

No I am not but you are

Lets not forget your effort to do theology by pop music

Appearently you did or want to


Theo1689 said:
I'm not the one "eschewing scripture".
YOU are.

Oh Did you imagine everyone was kung fu fighting is scripture

trying to mkount an argument regarding scriptural content based on pop music is an absurd effort

And it does ignore context so my claim was true

Not only did you ignore the scriptures you ignore context as well

Remember how you failed to address John 12:47

remember how you failed to address the scriptural uses and the meaning of especially I took from scripture

Theo1689 said:
It's simply a relevant example of how terms are used.

Which of course ignores context of scripture and BAGD which was quoted

Including your failure to address

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Its relationship to

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In the context

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

and of course BAGD

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

and your obvious mishandling of especially as shown by scripture

2 Timothy 4:13 (KJV)
13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

It simply does not eliminate that which is not especially noted

Were Timothy to understand especially in the faulty manner you proclaim he would have left the cloak and the books and only bought the parchments

but you simply ignore all that

and wanted to do theology based on a foreign context of pop music



Theo1689 said:
But if you prefer the Bible:

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Was "all the world" taxed?
Did the Chinese pay taxes to Caesar?
Did the Australian aborigines pay taxes to Caesar?

I mean, "all the world" means EVERYONE, right?

See above

Deal with the evidence you ran from last discussion

Evidence which is actually relevant to the scope of discussion

The meaning of world in soteriological and atonement passages

not some irrelevant context

again you were guilty of ignoring the evidence and the context of same
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes. What exactly does Rev. 5:9 have to do with this question?

Really?

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from
every tribe and language and people and nation,

We can agree, I hope, that the context is Christ's atonement,
"by your blood you ransomed people for God".


The word "every" above is the Greek word, "pas" ("all").
What does it modify?
It modifies "tribe" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "language" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "people" (a GROUP of people); from "laos", a "population"
It modifies "nation" (a GROUP of people);


Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed
people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,


Now, regarding the individuals, it says Christ ransomed "people" FROM (or "out of") all of th use people groups.

There is no "all" or "every" for the individual people. The "all" or "every" refers to the LARGE GROUPS of people, not "all individuals".

Christ ransomed some people from the Jews...
Christ ransomed some people from the Assyrians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Babylonians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Egyptians...
And so on...
And so on...
 
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TomFL

Guest
Really?

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from
every tribe and language and people and nation,

We can agree, I hope, that the context is Christ's atonement,
"by your blood you ransomed people for God".


The word "every" above is the Greek word, "pas" ("all").
What does it modify?
It modifies "tribe" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "language" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "people" (a GROUP of people); from "laos", a "population"
It modifies "nation" (a GROUP of people);


Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed
people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,


Now, regarding the individuals, it says Christ ransomed "people" FROM (or "out of") all of th use people groups.

There is no "all" or "every" for the individual people. The "all" or "every" refers to the LARGE GROUPS of people, not "all individuals".

Christ ransomed some people from the Jews...
Christ ransomed some people from the Assyrians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Babylonians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Egyptians...
And so on...
And so on...
This simplye assumes all Christ died for have been redeemed

It confounds the extent and the application of the atonement

The atonement is provisional it does not benefit without faith in Christ

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

This is the provision as the uplifted serpent did not benefit unless one looked upon it so Christ's atonement benefits only those who believe v15, 16, 18

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The extent of God's love is the world (that includes believers and unbelievers) It was to the world he gave his son not just believers

Those who believe shall be saved and able to proclaim the refrain of Revelation 5:9 those who do not believe will not



17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
For some reason you avoided the bulk of my previous reply

For some reason you seem to think the bulk of your writing is worthy of serious reply.
Sorry, but it's not.

Not to mention the fact that all you do is repeat your same old nonsense 10 million times, ad nauseam.

I'm not going to waste my time responding to things I've already refuted.

Remember how you failed to address John 12:47

No, I didn't "fail to address" it.
You simply don't like HOW I addressed it.

But just because you refuse to accept my answer, doesn't mean I didn't answer.
You see, this is simply another case of you repeating your same old garbage 10 million times.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Again, I've responded to this time after time.
Just because don't like the truth, doesn't mean I didn't give it.
 
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TomFL

Guest
For some reason you seem to think the bulk of your writing is worthy of serious reply.
Sorry, but it's not.

Not to mention the fact that all you do is repeat your same old nonsense 10 million times, ad nauseam.

I'm not going to waste my time responding to things I've already refuted.



No, I didn't "fail to address" it.
You simply don't like HOW I addressed it.

But just because you refuse to accept my answer, doesn't mean I didn't answer.
You see, this is simply another case of you repeating your same old garbage 10 million times.



Again, I've responded to this time after time.
Just because don't like the truth, doesn't mean I didn't give it.
Well I am not surprised that you still failed to address it

Sorry but you can't refute something you have never addressed

It is a total falsehood for you to claim you addressed John 12:47 or any of the scriptural examples I posted regarding especially

You had no answer and refused to provide one so by now claiming you answered you are impeaching your own credibility
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Theophilos

Active member
Really?

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from
every tribe and language and people and nation,

We can agree, I hope, that the context is Christ's atonement,
"by your blood you ransomed people for God".


The word "every" above is the Greek word, "pas" ("all").
What does it modify?
It modifies "tribe" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "language" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "people" (a GROUP of people); from "laos", a "population"
It modifies "nation" (a GROUP of people);


Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed
people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,


Now, regarding the individuals, it says Christ ransomed "people" FROM (or "out of") all of th use people groups.

There is no "all" or "every" for the individual people. The "all" or "every" refers to the LARGE GROUPS of people, not "all individuals".

Christ ransomed some people from the Jews...
Christ ransomed some people from the Assyrians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Babylonians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Egyptians...
And so on...
And so on...
Yes, logically everyone in the world would include people from every tribe and nation. Consider this verse:

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Romans 3:9 KJV

Does that mean that only Jews and Greeks sin?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yes, logically everyone in the world would include people from every tribe and nation. Consider this verse:

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Romans 3:9 KJV

Does that mean that only Jews and Greeks sin?
Theo1689 has confounded atonement extended to atonement applied

The atonement is for all Christ as He died for all as the scripture shows in many places

Its benefit are dependent upon faith in Christ

When one has faith the benefits of the atonement are applied
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Theo1689 has confounded atonement extended to atonement applied

The atonement is for all Christ as He died for all as the scripture shows in many places

Its benefit are dependent upon faith in Christ

When one has faith the benefits of the atonement are applied

The way I see it is, is the atonement is accomplished in Christ as the first stage—it is done only in him.

The second state is when people transition to becoming "in" Christ, then by virtue of their location, the atonement is accessed.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Theo1689 has confounded atonement extended to atonement applied

The atonement is for all Christ as He died for all as the scripture shows in many places

Its benefit are dependent upon faith in Christ

When one has faith the benefits of the atonement are applied
What if you fall away from the faith?
 
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TomFL

Guest
What if you fall away from the faith?
There are those who have a temporary faith The Arminian might say they lost their salvation

Calvin might say they had evanescent grace

Others might say they were probably never really regenerated

This is however not relevant to the topic at hand and and in my view an unprofitable discussion
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
There are those who have a temporary faith The Arminian might say they lost their salvation

Calvin might say they had evanescent grace

Others might say they were probably never really regenerated

This is however not relevant to the topic at hand and and in my view an unprofitable discussion
I asking you. Is your faulty version of the atonement is provisional then it seems eternal security would be also. If your "free" to come it seems you would be "free" to go. Right?
 
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TomFL

Guest
The way I see it is, is the atonement is accomplished in Christ as the first stage—it is done only in him.

The second state is when people transition to becoming "in" Christ, then by virtue of their location, the atonement is accessed.
The bible in my view is pretty clear one is not in Christ until they believe and that Christ died for all
 
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TomFL

Guest
I asking you. Is your faulty version of the atonement is provisional then it seems eternal security would be also. If your "free" to come it seems you would be "free" to go. Right?

And you would be wrong

Just as you are on the atonement

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

both the provisionalism and the conditionality are seen in the above passage
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 has confounded atonement extended to atonement applied

TomFL mistakenly thinks the atonement extended and the atonement applied are different.

The atonement is for all Christ as He died for all as the scripture shows in many places

And I have repeatedly shown where you have IGNORED THE CONTEXT of all those passages.

(So is this where you copy-and-paste all your refuted Scriptures for the ten millionth time, and I link to the refutation for the 10 millionth time?

The atonement is only for God's ELECT.
It is nonsensical for Christ to die for anyone He KNEW would never accept the gospel.


Btw, isn't it interesting that you think I can be wrong on many things...
And you think Seth can be wrong on many things...
And you think others can be wrong on many things....
But you think you are NEVER wrong?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The bible in my view is pretty clear one is not in Christ until they believe and that Christ died for all

Well, for starters, I think it's pretty silly for you to claim that the Bible is "pretty clear", when so many people disagree with you on so many things. When there is a great amount of disagreement, the only conclusion you can draw is that it isn't as "clear" as you would like to believe, otherwise everyone would "see" it, since it's so "clear".

You think it's "clear" that Christ died for all.
I think it's "clear" that Christ died only for the elect.

So in what way is it "clear"?
 
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