Reformedguy
Well-known member
What is the context in which this verse is penned?
"All men"
- Thread starter Theo1689
- Start date
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TomFL
Guest
Except what you failed to mention is the fact I present evidence. lots of evidence not just a child's refrain no you are wrong
While you and a number of your peers produce only bald denials
So it seems you are in denial of the true fact of the matter
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TomFL
Guest
For some reason you avoided the bulk of my previous reply
This sounds like a child's refrain
No I am not but you are
Lets not forget your effort to do theology by pop music
Appearently you did or want to
Oh Did you imagine everyone was kung fu fighting is scripture
trying to mkount an argument regarding scriptural content based on pop music is an absurd effort
And it does ignore context so my claim was true
Not only did you ignore the scriptures you ignore context as well
Remember how you failed to address John 12:47
remember how you failed to address the scriptural uses and the meaning of especially I took from scripture
Which of course ignores context of scripture and BAGD which was quoted
Including your failure to address
John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Its relationship to
John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
In the context
John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
and of course BAGD
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
and your obvious mishandling of especially as shown by scripture
2 Timothy 4:13 (KJV)
13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
It simply does not eliminate that which is not especially noted
Were Timothy to understand especially in the faulty manner you proclaim he would have left the cloak and the books and only bought the parchments
but you simply ignore all that
and wanted to do theology based on a foreign context of pop music
See above
Deal with the evidence you ran from last discussion
Evidence which is actually relevant to the scope of discussion
The meaning of world in soteriological and atonement passages
not some irrelevant context
again you were guilty of ignoring the evidence and the context of same
Theo1689
Well-known member
Really?
Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
We can agree, I hope, that the context is Christ's atonement,
"by your blood you ransomed people for God".
The word "every" above is the Greek word, "pas" ("all").
What does it modify?
It modifies "tribe" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "language" (a GROUP of people);
It modifies "people" (a GROUP of people); from "laos", a "population"
It modifies "nation" (a GROUP of people);
Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Now, regarding the individuals, it says Christ ransomed "people" FROM (or "out of") all of th use people groups.
There is no "all" or "every" for the individual people. The "all" or "every" refers to the LARGE GROUPS of people, not "all individuals".
Christ ransomed some people from the Jews...
Christ ransomed some people from the Assyrians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Babylonians...
Christ ransomed some people from the Egyptians...
And so on...
And so on...
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TomFL
Guest
This simplye assumes all Christ died for have been redeemed
It confounds the extent and the application of the atonement
The atonement is provisional it does not benefit without faith in Christ
John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
This is the provision as the uplifted serpent did not benefit unless one looked upon it so Christ's atonement benefits only those who believe v15, 16, 18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The extent of God's love is the world (that includes believers and unbelievers) It was to the world he gave his son not just believers
Those who believe shall be saved and able to proclaim the refrain of Revelation 5:9 those who do not believe will not
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Theo1689
Well-known member
For some reason you seem to think the bulk of your writing is worthy of serious reply.
Sorry, but it's not.
Not to mention the fact that all you do is repeat your same old nonsense 10 million times, ad nauseam.
I'm not going to waste my time responding to things I've already refuted.
No, I didn't "fail to address" it.
You simply don't like HOW I addressed it.
But just because you refuse to accept my answer, doesn't mean I didn't answer.
You see, this is simply another case of you repeating your same old garbage 10 million times.
Again, I've responded to this time after time.
Just because don't like the truth, doesn't mean I didn't give it.
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TomFL
Guest
Well I am not surprised that you still failed to address it
Sorry but you can't refute something you have never addressed
It is a total falsehood for you to claim you addressed John 12:47 or any of the scriptural examples I posted regarding especially
You had no answer and refused to provide one so by now claiming you answered you are impeaching your own credibility
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Theophilos
Active member
Yes, logically everyone in the world would include people from every tribe and nation. Consider this verse:
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Romans 3:9 KJV
Does that mean that only Jews and Greeks sin?
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TomFL
Guest
Theo1689 has confounded atonement extended to atonement applied
The atonement is for all Christ as He died for all as the scripture shows in many places
Its benefit are dependent upon faith in Christ
When one has faith the benefits of the atonement are applied
Dizerner
Well-known member
The way I see it is, is the atonement is accomplished in Christ as the first stage—it is done only in him.
The second state is when people transition to becoming "in" Christ, then by virtue of their location, the atonement is accessed.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
What if you fall away from the faith?
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TomFL
Guest
There are those who have a temporary faith The Arminian might say they lost their salvation
Calvin might say they had evanescent grace
Others might say they were probably never really regenerated
This is however not relevant to the topic at hand and and in my view an unprofitable discussion
Reformedguy
Well-known member
I asking you. Is your faulty version of the atonement is provisional then it seems eternal security would be also. If your "free" to come it seems you would be "free" to go. Right?
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TomFL
Guest
The bible in my view is pretty clear one is not in Christ until they believe and that Christ died for all
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TomFL
Guest
And you would be wrong
Just as you are on the atonement
John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
both the provisionalism and the conditionality are seen in the above passage
Theo1689
Well-known member
TomFL mistakenly thinks the atonement extended and the atonement applied are different.
And I have repeatedly shown where you have IGNORED THE CONTEXT of all those passages.
(So is this where you copy-and-paste all your refuted Scriptures for the ten millionth time, and I link to the refutation for the 10 millionth time?
The atonement is only for God's ELECT.
It is nonsensical for Christ to die for anyone He KNEW would never accept the gospel.
Btw, isn't it interesting that you think I can be wrong on many things...
And you think Seth can be wrong on many things...
And you think others can be wrong on many things....
But you think you are NEVER wrong?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Well, for starters, I think it's pretty silly for you to claim that the Bible is "pretty clear", when so many people disagree with you on so many things. When there is a great amount of disagreement, the only conclusion you can draw is that it isn't as "clear" as you would like to believe, otherwise everyone would "see" it, since it's so "clear".
You think it's "clear" that Christ died for all.
I think it's "clear" that Christ died only for the elect.
So in what way is it "clear"?
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TomFL
Guest
There are many verses I can read and plainly understand as written
You have to explain away the apparent meaning
and when you have no answer just refuse to address them
John 12:47 is not going away
nor are biblical uses of the word especially
Nor BDAG for that matter
Theo1689
Well-known member
And I can read them, too....
And whether you are accurately "understanding" them simply begs the question.
Not at all.
The "apparent meaning" is that Christ only died for the elect.
The only reason I have to "explain away" anything is because YOU have imposed a false understanding that I have to "explain away", since it's not what Scripture says or means.
I've addressed them ALL.
I've linked to them, many times.
You simply ignore them, say, "Nuh-huh", and requote all your verses again.
It doesn't need to "go away".
I'm no the one "running away" from Scripture.
YOU are.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
"World" doesn't mean "every single individual in the world".
That is the meaning you're FALSELY trying to project onto the passage.
But the four words I bolded are NOT in the passage.
And even if it meant that, it would make Jesus a liar and a failure.
It also doesn't say Jesus came to "atone" for the world.
It says he came to "save" the world.
And every single individual isn't saved.
But look, here I am wasting my time again, responding to this, when you are simply going to pretend I never said anything, pretend I didn't address the verse, and then requote John 12:47 10 million more times.
It's funny when you can recognize when others are "playing a game", but you can't seem to recognize when YOU are.
Well, you've demonstrated that you don't even know how to use BDAG.
You and Seth need to stop pretending to deal with "the Greek", and misusing Greek resources you don't know how to use.
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TomFL
Guest
No Tom knows they are
The bible tells me Christ died for the world
but he only saves those in the world who will believe
Tom also knows you were unable to handle the discussion based on the term world
using john 12:47
John 3:16 and its context
and BDAG
Tom also knows you failed to deal with the biblical uses of the word especially
and cried harassment when your failure was noted
LOL
You didn't even address some of them
Such as those mentioned above
so you did not show anything at all
You have made a claim you cannot back up
See Theo you have to actually address something before you can even begin to claim a refutation
You never even got out of the gate
As such it is rather absurd of you to speak of refutation