"All men"

[Theophilos]

Well, if you're referring to the passages which speak of everyone having sinned, then I certainly agree with you regarding THOSE passages.

As for "God wants everyone to repent", that's a little more complicated than you seem to think. Certainly everyone is morally OBLIGATED to repent, so God has a judicial expectation for everyone to repent. But we can only repent if God GIVES us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25), and even if you don't believe that, you must surely agree that God KNOWS (based on His foreknowledge) who will repent, and who won't, so it's ridiculous for God to "want" or "wish" or "desire" for someone to repent whom He already knows will NEVER repent.

It's like you holding a lottery ticket, and you still hoping to win even after the numbers have been drawn, and you have lost.



If you are alluding to 2 Pet. 3:9, that is only for the "beloved" (v.8), the "us-ward" (v.9).
CONTEXT is key.



You don't seem to understand this verse.
Are you aware that there are THREE groups in play here?
And the group that "were not willing" (ie. the Pharisees) were NOT the same group as teh group Jesus wanted to gather ("your children").

Paul said that God gave people the ability to seek the Lord, and He commands everyone to repent:

. . . He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent . . .
Acts 17:26-30 NKJV

 

[TomFL]

Paul said that God gave people the ability to seek the Lord, and He commands everyone to repent:

. . . He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent . . .
Acts 17:26-30 NKJV

Yes God commands all men everywhere to repent

All men have a duty to repent and believe

 

[Theo1689]

Paul said that God gave people the ability to seek the Lord, and He commands everyone to repent:

. . . He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent . . .
Acts 17:26-30 NKJV

Nope.
Nothing about "ability" in that passage.

If you want to study passages about "ability" (or lack thereof), I would direct you to John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, John 3:3, etc.

 

[His clay]

Nope.
Nothing about "ability" in that passage.

If you want to study passages about "ability" (or lack thereof), I would direct you to John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, John 3:3, etc.

Yes God commands all men everywhere to repent

All men have a duty to repent and believe

And so the key question is whether a command necessarily implies ability. Can one reasonably infer ability from a command, biblically? The question strikes to the heart of the issue of depravity. How does one understand depravity in the scripture? Does Scripture's revelation of depravity exclude human ability to achieve the command of repentance and belief?

Simple example: God, through Moses, commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Did Pharaoh have the ability to obey in light of depravity?

 

[TomFL]

And so the key question is whether a command necessarily implies ability. Can one reasonably infer ability from a command, biblically? The question strikes to the heart of the issue of depravity. How does one understand depravity in the scripture? Does Scripture's revelation of depravity exclude human ability to achieve the command of repentance and belief?

Simple example: God, through Moses, commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Did Pharaoh have the ability to obey in light of depravity?

It would be a total assumption on your part that if Pharoah could not obey God's command no one can believe the gospel

A total non sequitur

The fact is many have believed and been saved

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

are told to believe and have life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name

You would have us to believe God always commands what he determines impossible

That is not the God of the bible who loves the world and has a desire for the salvation of men

 

[Theo1689]

It would be a total assumption on your part that if Pharoah could not obey God's command no one can believe the gospel

No, it is simply presenting evidence to refute the (unbiblical, and anti-biblical) ASSUMPTION that "command implies ability".

Scripture NEVER teaches, "command implies ability".
It is simply an ASSUMPTION to try to bolster the anti-Biblical teaching of "free will".

Pharaoh didn't have the ability to obey God's command.
Because the very PURPOSE of Pharaoh was for God to harden His heart, so that He could demonstrate His power through His miracles of plagues.

(Exo 4:21) And the LORD said unto Moses, […] I will harden his heart, […]
(Exo 7:3) And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, […]
(Exo 7:13) And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, […] as the LORD had said.
(Exo 7:14) And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, […;]
(Exo 7:22) […] and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,
(Exo 8:19) […] and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,
(Exo 9:7) […] And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened,
(Exo 9:12) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, […]
(Exo 9:35) And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, […]
(Exo 10:1) And the LORD said […] I have hardened his heart, […]
(Exo 10:20) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, […]
(Exo 10:27) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, […]
(Exo 11:10) […] and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, […]
(Exo 14:4) And I will harden Pharaoh's heart[…]
(Exo 14:8) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, […]

The fact is many have believed and been saved

Yes, and ONLY because:
- God elected them;
- God regenerated them;
- God gave them faith;
- God gave them repentance;
- God drew them.
- God imputed Christ's righteousness to them.

Those who are not drawn are UNABLE to "believe and be saved".
That's why John. 6:44 reads, "NO ONE can come to me UNLESS..."

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And it is GOD who gives them the faith to believe (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

You would have us to believe God always commands what he determines impossible

No, that's a straw man.
All we're saying is that just because something is commanded, you can't necessarily ASSUME the ability to obey.

That's why Augustine prayed:

"God command what you will
and grant what you command.”

It's funny....
I believe you argue against those who believe they are living a perfectly sinless life.
Because this is a perfect example that "command does NOT imply ability". The reason we cannot be sinless in this life, is that we are unable to obey the command to "sin no more".

If you TRULY believe that "command implies ability", then you have ZERO reason to doubt those who claim to be sinless.

That is not the God of the bible who loves the world

Well, maybe your understanding of "kosmos" is inaccurate?

and has a desire for the salvation of men

No, you are wrong.
There is no conflict for God desiring men to be saved, and the necessity of God to do it.
"Salvation is of the Lord."

 

[TomFL]

No, it is simply presenting evidence to refute the (unbiblical, and anti-biblical) ASSUMPTION that "command implies ability".

Well lets see

God loves the world

He desires all to be saved

Gives his son for the world

Commands all men to believe

but Makes it impossible for the majority to believe

Tilt

Your view is inconsistent with the nature of God

further we don't actually know what ability Pharoah had

We only know he did not let the Israelites go

Scripture NEVER teaches, "command implies ability".
It is simply an ASSUMPTION to try to bolster the anti-Biblical teaching of "free will".

Unless you believe God is duplicitous you cannot assume all his commands to repent or believe are unable to be obeyed

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (ESV)
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Pharaoh didn't have the ability to obey God's command.
Because the very PURPOSE of Pharaoh was for God to harden His heart, so that He could demonstrate His power through His miracles of plagues.

(Exo 4:21) And the LORD said unto Moses, […] I will harden his heart, […]
(Exo 7:3) And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, […]
(Exo 7:13) And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, […] as the LORD had said.
(Exo 7:14) And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, […;]
(Exo 7:22) […] and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,

But why would God have to harden Pharoahs heart if he had no ability to obey

Your argument makes no sense

 

[Theo1689]

Well lets see

God loves the world

If you think "world" means "every single individual everywhere", then that is not Scripture.
You are also denying Ps. 5:5.
You are also denying Mal. 1:2-3.
You are also denying Rom. 9:13.

He desires all to be saved

If you believe "all" means "every single individual everywhere", then that is not Scripture.

And you are not basing your view on Scripture, you are basing your view on YOUR understanding.

Gives his son for the world

Again, you refuse to accept correction on your misunderstanding of "world".

but Makes it impossible for the majority to believe

... on their OWN.

God can make a "minority" believe,
or God can make a "majority" believe,
or God can make "everyone" believe.

So what I'm saying has NO conflict with Scripture.
It only has conflict with your MISUNDERSTANDING of Scripture.

Your view is inconsistent with the nature of God

No, actually, it is NOT.

Unless you believe God is duplicitous you cannot assume all his commands to repent or believe are unable to be obeyed

And of course, I NEVER made that claim.
When you are forced to argue straw-men, that should tell you that your position is indefensible.

Your argument makes no sense

Actually, it makes PERFECT sense.
The only reason you deny this, is because it goes against your false theology.

 

[Theo1689]

Same author defined "world"

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Um, no....
There are about TWELVE different meanings of "kosmos".
The word doesn't mean the same in EVERY instance of its use.

The same author says you're wrong....

Nope.
John has never told me I'm wrong.

 

[TomFL]

TomFL said:
Well lets see

God loves the world

Theo1689 stated
If you think "world" means "every single individual everywhere", then that is not Scripture.
You are also denying Ps. 5:5.
You are also denying Mal. 1:2-3.
You are also denying Rom. 9:13.

You ran from context

Remember John 12:47

John 12:47 (ESV)
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

it includes all unbelievers

You ran from that argument

It is parallel to

John 3:17 (ESV)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

and context

John 3:14-18 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


So the term world is defined for us it includes all unbelievers

TomFL said:
He desires all to be saved

If you believe "all" means "every single individual everywhere", then that is not Scripture.

I did not say everywhere

again referring to a particular context

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (NASB77)
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.

but I think you knew that

TomFL said:
Gives his son for the world

Again, you refuse to accept correction on your misunderstanding of "world".


LOL

You were corrected on this. Remember John 4:37 you had no answer

Remember BDAG and how you could not deal with its definition

including the biblical use of especially

and had to cry harrassment when your failure was noted

TomFL said:
but Makes it impossible for the majority to believe

... on their OWN.

God can make a "minority" believe,
or God can make a "majority" believe,
or God can make "everyone" believe.

So what I'm saying has NO conflict with Scripture.
It only has conflict with your MISUNDERSTANDING of Scripture.

TomFL said:
Your view is inconsistent with the nature of God

No, actually, it is NOT.

Yeah actually it is see below

TomFL said:
Unless you believe God is duplicitous you cannot assume all his commands to repent or believe are unable to be obeyed

And of course, I NEVER made that claim.
When you are forced to argue straw-men, that should tell you that your position is indefensible.

TomFL said:
Your argument makes no sense

Theo1689 stated

Actually, it makes PERFECT sense.
The only reason you deny this, is because it goes against your false theology.

I see you left my verse off

It spoke to ability but you ignored it

Deuteronomy 30:10-19 (ESV)
10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

sorry but your claims are not biblical

 

[Reformedguy]

And you would be wrong

Just as you are on the atonement

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

both the provisionalism and the conditionality are seen in the above passage

Could you answer my question? Is eternal security also provisional?

 

[TomFL]

Could you answer my question? Is eternal security also provisional?

There is no eternal security without salvation

so it is conditional in that sense

However your question was already answered

 

[His clay]

It would be a total assumption on your part that if Pharoah could not obey God's command no one can believe the gospel

A total non sequitur

The fact is many have believed and been saved

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

are told to believe and have life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name

You would have us to believe God always commands what he determines impossible

That is not the God of the bible who loves the world and has a desire for the salvation of men

Thanks Tom for the straw man. I made no argument that conflates Pharoah's ability or inability to obey God's command with the ability of every other individual in history who has heard the gospel command to repent and believe. Please note my own words, quoted below, which you misconstrued.

And so the key question is whether a command necessarily implies ability. Can one reasonably infer ability from a command, biblically? The question strikes to the heart of the issue of depravity. How does one understand depravity in the scripture? Does Scripture's revelation of depravity exclude human ability to achieve the command of repentance and belief?

Simple example: God, through Moses, commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Did Pharaoh have the ability to obey in light of depravity?

The issue is this, as stated previously, does a command necessarily imply ability? Did you notice how I underlined the key word again? Did you notice how I also added the issue of depravity into the mix?

Hence, in light of depravity I used an example, stating: "God, through Moses, commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Did Pharaoh have the ability to obey in light of depravity?"

Again, because you completely missed the obvious the first time. Does a command necessarily imply ability? Please at least try to understand the meaning of my words. Thanks so much.

 

[TomFL]

Thanks Tom for the straw man. I made no argument that conflates Pharoah's ability or inability to obey God's command with the ability of every other individual in history who has heard the gospel command to repent and believe. Please note my own words, quoted below, which you misconstrued.

Well actually you did

You tried to use Pharoah as an example to answer the question does command equal ability

Here is a better one for you

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (ESV)
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

The issue is this, as stated previously, does a command necessarily imply ability? Did you notice how I underlined the key word again? Did you notice how I also added the issue of depravity into the mix?

Hence, in light of depravity I used an example, stating: "God, through Moses, commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Did Pharaoh have the ability to obey in light of depravity?"

Again, because you completely missed the obvious the first time. Does a command necessarily imply ability? Please at least try to understand the meaning of my words. Thanks so much.

I believe you missed the obvious

If Pharoah had no natural ability to let the Israelites go

why did God have to harden his heart ?

God however had already made up his mind to destroy pharoah

According to the bible God desires the salvation of men not their damnation

so yes there is an implication of ability

it is not always so but there is normally an implication

In any case

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (ESV)
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

speaks of ability

and there is an implication of ability here


John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

and here

Romans 10:10-17 (ESV)
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Dizerner]

I don't think command logically implies ability, as none of us can keep the Law of God, yet all of us are commanded to keep it.

However, there are other verbal cues along with a command that would be dishonest if ability were not implied.

For example anything that implies actual expectations from a command is dishonest if the commander knows it is impossible.

 

[TomFL]

I don't think command logically implies ability, as none of us can keep the Law of God, yet all of us are commanded to keep it.

However, there are other verbal cues along with a command that would be dishonest if ability were not implied.

For example anything that implies actual expectations from a command is dishonest if the commander knows it is impossible.

And there is the implication

The Nature and justice of God makes it so

Regarding the law we are clearly told of the impossibility to earn righteousness by law

regarding commands to believe or repent we are not told it is impossible and men have done so

 

[Reformedguy]

There is no eternal security without salvation

so it is conditional in that sense

However your question was already

Yes, but is my eternal security provisional? Am I "free" to walk away?

 

[TomFL]

Yes, but is my eternal security provisional? Am I "free" to walk away?

You were already answered the first post

No

 

[Reformedguy]

You were already answered the first post

No

No? Lol So my will is no longer free then?

 

[TomFL]

No? Lol So my will is no longer free then?

Your will will not want to depart

Remember those who truly believe have been regenerated and have a new heart