All the eschatological views can be divided into three basic groups...

So are you saying the "legs" ended by AD 74?

And are you saying the "feet" were right before AD 74 as well?


I think you are. Correct me if I am mistaken.

So this chart should be a pretty accurate fit for your view...

View attachment 1134


P.S.

The peak of the Roman Empire was probably more like AD 180 or so. So I personally am not sure how the "legs" could be considered ended a hundred years earlier.
The way I understand the statue and beasts is as it/they relate to the Jewish State, the Jews (Daniel's people) not as they exist in and of themselves. So the iron legs/feet end at AD 74 because that's the end of Daniel's people as a nation, not because that's the end of Rome.

In other words, I don't understand the symbols in terms of timelines but relational concepts.
 
Okay, but can you tell us...

1) What time frame does the "head of gold" represent? (I say around 606 BC to 539 BC.)
2) What time frame does the "breast and arms of silver" represent? (I say around 539 BC to 331 BC.)
3) What time frame does the "belly and thighs of brass" represent? (I say around 331 BC to 30 BC.)
4) What time frame does the "legs of iron" represent? (I say around 30 BC to AD 410.)
5) What time frame does the "feet of iron and clay" represent? (I say around AD 410 to AD 476.)

Daniel 2:32-33... This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
I do not disagree.

What does the AC have to do with what you posted? The chart mentions AC, but none of the chart is about the AC.
 
I do not disagree.

What does the AC have to do with what you posted? The chart mentions AC, but none of the chart is about the AC.
If by AC you mean antichrist, then the answer is nothing. Antichrist is not an eschatological concept. It was written after the end times had come and gone and was pointed towards the Gnostics in the last decade or so of the 1st Century.
 
I do not disagree.

What does the AC have to do with what you posted? The chart mentions AC, but none of the chart is about the AC.

I made the chart for my discussions with Futurists who use the term "Antichrist" to refer to the "little horn" of Daniel 7.

Daniel 7:8... I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

So just replace the word "Antichrist" with "The little horn of Daniel 7".

Now, which chart best reflects your eschatological view?
 
Greetings Yahchristian,
@TrevorL you might enjoy the charts I created in post #1 of this thread.
Yes, interesting charts. I believe in the third option, based upon the continuous historic view. But a few problems, one of which is reflected in the following statement:
5) What time frame does the "feet of iron and clay" represent? (I say around AD 410 to AD 476.)
I consider that the feet and toes continue on until the return of Jesus to establish his Kingdom upon the earth Daniel 2:35,44. Jesus as the stone will smash into the feet when he comes, and as such the feet and toes must reach beyond AD 476, and last until 2022++, whenever Jesus returns (soon). Also you do not give an indication of when the 2300 starts and terminates. I suggest a major fulfillment was from BC 334-333 to AD 1967. Another aspect is that I believe that the 1260 years has mainly two starting dates, Justinian AD 529-533, Phocas AD 610, terminating respectively AD 1789-1793 The French Revolution and AD 1870 the loss of the Papal States and associated problems.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I consider that the feet and toes continue on until the return of Jesus to establish his Kingdom upon the earth Daniel 2:35,44. Jesus as the stone will smash into the feet when he comes, and as such the feet and toes must reach beyond AD 476, and last until 2022++, whenever Jesus returns (soon).

I believe Jesus as the stone (through the Church) smashed the image during the time of the feet (when the Roman Empire was in two parts), which occurs before the time of toes (when the Roman Empire had broken up into ten kingdoms).

In other words, Nebuchadnezzar’s image was a prophecy of Christianity conquering Paganism in the fourth century. The time of the toes wasn’t until the fifth century.


Also you do not give an indication of when the 2300 starts and terminates. I suggest a major fulfillment was from BC 334-333 to AD 1967.

I believe the prophecy of Daniel 9 was given to explain the ending of the vision of Daniel 8. So the two highlighted texts below are the same event...

Daniel 8:25... And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 9:26... And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

So I believe the vision of Daniel 8 (the 2300) starts at the Tower of Babel, the prophecy of Daniel 9 (the 490) starts in 458/457 BC, and they both end by the Fall of Jerusalem.


Another aspect is that I believe that the 1260 years has mainly two starting dates, Justinian AD 529-533, Phocas AD 610, terminating respectively AD 1789-1793 The French Revolution and AD 1870 the loss of the Papal States and associated problems.

The Papacy is a unique entity where the Pope is both a spiritual leader and also a temporal leader (a king).

I date the beginning of the Papacy’s spiritual reign to Phocas AD 610, but I date the Papacy’s temporal reign (the 1260) to the Pope crowning the Emperor in AD 800.
 
Greetings Yahchristian,
I believe Jesus as the stone (through the Church) smashed the image during the time of the feet (when the Roman Empire was in two parts), which occurs before the time of toes (when the Roman Empire had broken up into ten kingdoms).
In other words, Nebuchadnezzar’s image was a prophecy of Christianity conquering Paganism in the fourth century. The time of the toes wasn’t until the fifth century.
The Church under Constantine did conquer the Pagan Roman Empire, but he was head of the corrupt Church. I consider Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are parallel both ending in the return of Jesus, the overthrow of the nations and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. Part of the long period of the 4th Empire, the Roman Empire includes the 1260 years that the Papacy persecuted the faithful. Perhaps I consider the true "Ekklesia", both then and now, as being smaller than your perspective.
I believe the prophecy of Daniel 9 was given to explain the ending of the vision of Daniel 8. So the two highlighted texts below are the same event...
Daniel 8:25... And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
I believe Daniel 8:25 is future, when Christ returns and Daniel 8:25 is parallel with Daniel 11:40-45, at the time of the end.
Daniel 11:40–45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
The two phrases 8:25 "he shall be broken without hand" and 11:45: "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him" are both speaking about the same event, his destruction at the Battle of Armageddon.
Daniel 9:26... And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I consider the above speaks about the crucifixion of Jesus, and this is parallel to Daniel 8:11
Daniel 8:9–11 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
The Papacy is a unique entity where the Pope is both a spiritual leader and also a temporal leader (a king).
I date the beginning of the Papacy’s spiritual reign to Phocas AD 610, but I date the Papacy’s temporal reign (the 1260) to the Pope crowning the Emperor in AD 800.
I also include Justinian AD 529-533 to the French Revolution AD 1789-1783 for the 1260 years, agree with the Decree of Phocas AD 610 - AD 1870, loss of temporal power and other items for a second application of the 1260 years. I will not exclude AD 800, and will need to consider this, but hopefully Jesus will return soon.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I consider the above speaks about the crucifixion of Jesus, and this is parallel to Daniel 8:11
I believe Daniel 8:25 is future, when Christ returns

I believe Daniel 8:2-12 is the vision and Daniel 8:20-25 explains that vision.

Daniel 8:16... And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

So Daniel 8:11 and 8:25 are speaking of the same events. Whereas you say 8:11 refers to Jesus’ crucifixion but 8:25 refers to Jesus’ return.

Do you think Daniel 8:2-12 and Daniel 8:20-25 are two different visions?

Here is a correlation of Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 as I understand it.

And here is why I think Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 should be correlated.
 
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Greetings again Yahchristian,
I believe Daniel 8:2-12 is the vision and Daniel 8:20-25 explains that vision.
Daniel 8:16... And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Yes, but the vision covers all the events and includes the 2300 years.
So Daniel 8:11 and 8:25 are speaking of the same events. Whereas you say 8:11 refers to Jesus’ crucifixion but 8:25 refers to Jesus’ return.
Do you think Daniel 8:2-12 and Daniel 8:20-25 are two different visions?
No, one overall vision but Daniel 8:25 is some indication how the sanctuary would be cleansed at the end of the 2300 years. This is parallel with Daniel 11:40-45, at the time of the end. I looked at your two articles and not sure how this answers my position. Yes, Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 are interlinked, part of the overall view which is given in sacrificial terms, even the nations are depicted as a ram and a goat, and the days are mentioned as evenings/mornings, the time when the burnt offerings were sacrificed and prayer was given. Daniel 9 includes the crucifixion of Jesus and again it is speaking of the cleansing of the Most Holy, or the establishment of the true Most Holy.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I looked at your two articles and not sure how this answers my position.

The vision of Daniel 8 ends with...

Daniel 8:11-12... Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The interpretation of the vision of Daniel 8 ends with...

Daniel 8:25... And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

So those two passages are talking about the same events.

In other words, “he shall stand up against the Prince of princes” is referring to “he magnified himself even to the prince of the host”.

This is referring to the crucifixion of Jesus.
 
Daniel 8:25 is some indication how the sanctuary would be cleansed at the end of the 2300 years.

True.

The question was “How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice?”

The answer given was “Unto two thousand and three hundred days” (2,300 years) “then shall the sanctuary be cleansed” (Jesus offers the final sacrifice).

I believe the 2,300 years went from the Tower of Babel in 2271-2268 BC to the crucifixion of Jesus in AD 30-33.

Daniel 8:11-12... Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Hebrews 9:11-12... But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

How did/do you think the sanctuary would be cleansed?
 
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Greetings again Yahchristian,
I believe the 2,300 years went from the Tower of Babel in 2271-2268 BC to the crucifixion of Jesus in AD 30-33.
I believe that the 2300 years of military treading down of Jerusalem started with the transfer of rule of Judea from the Persians to the Greeks. The Persians were sympathetic to Jerusalem and the Temple worship. The Grecians and their successors the Romans were antagonistic. I consider BC 334-333 to AD 1967 fits the concept of treading down.
How did/do you think the sanctuary would be cleansed?
Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed and the children of Israel were scattered or taken captive in AD 70. After this there was a long period of down treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The term "trodden down" is a military term, and the Six Day War reversed this military effect, the captivity of Jerusalem was overcome:
Joel 3:1 (KJV): For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
The captivity of Judah speaks about 1948 and Jerusalem 1967. These were major steps, major milestones towards the ultimate cleansing of Jerusalem when Jesus returns and sits upon the Temple / Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I consider BC 334-333 to AD 1967 fits the concept of treading down.

Then the 2,300 years have ended 55 years ago and the sanctuary has already been cleansed.

So what exactly does “the sanctuary” refer to in AD 1967?

Daniel 8:14... And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

I believe “the sanctuary” refers to “a greater and more perfect tabernacle”...

Hebrews 9:11-12... But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
Greetings again Yahchristian,
So what exactly does “the sanctuary” refer to in AD 1967?
Jerusalem was recaptured reversing AD 70 and the treading down of the Gentiles Luke 21:24. This was the first phase, the military, then political has happened to some extent, and the religious is mainly future except for the Western Wall. There is still some more treading down to occur, but of short duration, because the very capture of Jerusalem and the West Bank has laid the basis for the controversy of Jerusalem and the Two State Solution. This seems to be part of the catalyst for Armageddon Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 11:40-45, Joel 3:1-2, Revelation 16:12-16 and my understanding of Daniel 8:25.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
So what exactly does “the sanctuary” refer to in AD 1967?
Jerusalem was recaptured reversing AD 70 and the treading down of the Gentiles Luke 21:24. This was the first phase, the military, then political has happened to some extent, and the religious is mainly future except for the Western Wall.

I could not tell from your reply.

So just to clarify your view...

In 1967, did “the sanctuary” refer to the city of Jerusalem, just the Western Wall, the whole State of Israel, or something else?
 
Greetings again Yahchristian,
So just to clarify your view...
In 1967, did “the sanctuary” refer to the city of Jerusalem, just the Western Wall, the whole State of Israel, or something else?
Compare the language of Luke 21 with Daniel 8, the sanctuary is Jerusalem and the Holy Place, the Most Holy Place, the Temple which is to be restored Isaiah 2:1-4.

I am answering the same question in two different threads, but I will add this here also in case some are not aware of the other thread:
I believe that the 2300 has a number of starting and finishing dates, and the one that corresponds strongly with the most prominent aspect of the vision, the slaying of the Ram by the Goat is 1967. The suddenness, ferocity and the persistence of the Goat remarkably is reflected by the Six Day war, and even the initial attack and success by the Israeli Air Force on Egypt and the tanks in Sinai, leaving the unexpected opportunity for a Sinai Battalion to be redirected to recapture Jerusalem and then the West Bank. I have a personal understanding of a very real fulfilment of the "Failed" or "Great Disappointment" of William Miller's 1843 date, and this view is not the SDA "happening in heaven". I also anticipate when the Temple is restored that this may correspond with some Grecian event in Jerusalem, possibly a religious subjugation. God is very patient, but can move swiftly and exactly on time when required. The Jeremiah 70 years had two starting dates and two fulfilments. 1967 is a great milestone marking the outworking of God's purpose in the M.E and setting the stage for other important prophecies and why some nations will attempt to intervene in the Jerusalem burdensome stone and East Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I believe that the 2300 has a number of starting and finishing dates,

Then that would require a number of times “the sanctuary be cleansed”.

Daniel 8:14... And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

I believe there was only one time when “the sanctuary be cleansed”, and that was at Calvary.

Hebrews 8:1-2... Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
 
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Greetings again Yahchristian,
Then that would require a number of times “the sanctuary be cleansed”.
Daniel 8:14... And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The cleansing of the sanctuary in the times of Ezra and Nehemiah was over many years, and perhaps could not be considered complete until the walls of Jerusalem were finished. I take "then" as the starting point, and in Ezra's time it was the Decree of Cyrus at the end of the 70 years and in response to the prayer of Daniel and possibly others, but even then there was a slight delay of 21 days as Gabriel was ineffective until he was given the help of Michael.
I believe there was only one time when “the sanctuary be cleansed”, and that was at Calvary.
The crucifixion was the cleansing of the Most Holy embodied in Jesus. The cleansing of the faithful is ongoing, and only will be complete when they are resurrected or those alive now changed when Jesus returns, and these all given immortality and also incorporated into the Most Holy. The cleansing of the nation of Israel and the Gentiles will commence at the return of Jesus and in a sense they will become the Holy Place in the period of time between the return of Jesus and the real start of the 1000 years and this will coincide with the completion of the 3rd Temple Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 40-48.
Hebrews 8:1-2... Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Yes, but there will be a literal Temple during the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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