All the Father gives Me will come !

T

TomFL

Guest
Only those who believed God's witnesses repented; the others were blinded.
and only believers are elected in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
and only believers are elected in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

They are believers because they are elect.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
They are believers because they are elect.
No they are chosen on the basis of being in Christ

In Romans

Romans 11:7 (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

We learn That while Israel failed to obtain righteousness the election received it

earlier we saw why

Romans 9:30-32 (ESV)
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
No they are chosen on the basis of being in Christ

They are chosen from the foundation of the world...predestined.

In Romans

Romans 11:7 (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

We learn That while Israel failed to obtain righteousness the election received it

earlier we saw why

Romans 9:30-32 (ESV)
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

That verse is about faith vs the law....

But since you quoted romans 9....

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory....
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Correct, Paul is speaking of the repentance that comes from God, that is accompanied by godly sorrow (7:9)
I'm trying to follow your logic. So far I'm following you.
and worldly grief
worldly grief as in selfish worldly regrets?
that isn't akin to godly sorrow leading to repentance.
You're saying: Paul is speaking of the repentance .... accompanied by godly sorrow.... that isn't akin to godly sorrow ... leading to repentance.
So if A= repentance and B = godly sorrow then
what you're saying is that (A and B) is not equal to (B and A)
Am I reading you correctly or am I missing something?
The former is a repentance not to be repented of.
What is the "former"? What is the latter?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
TomFL said:
No they are chosen on the basis of being in Christ
They are chosen from the foundation of the world...predestined.

You need to prove they are chosen unconditionally

The verse says they were chosen in Christ

In christ is a condition that is fulfilled by faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

that is not unconditional election



TomFL said:
In Romans

Romans 11:7 (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

We learn That while Israel failed to obtain righteousness the election received it

earlier we saw why

Romans 9:30-32 (ESV)
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Click to expand...
That verse is about faith vs the law....

Yes and the elect were so because they sought righteousness based on faith

The non elect because they sought it based on works

You have no rebuttal
But since you quoted romans 9....

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory....
And ?

Mercy is not receiving the punishment you deserve

God set the grounds for mercy

He could chose to grant righteousness by faith to those who did not deserve it - i.e. the gentiles

and He did not owe Israel righteous - He in fact hardened them in their rebellion

He had that right as well

Nothing there about unconditional election from birth

as for the potter

Israel was a flawed vessel because of their stubbornness and hardness of heart. God was going to use them as a vessel of dishonor - using them to effect the crucifixion

Less you think however that necessitates passivity

Lets us look at Jeremiah and the potter and the clay

Jeremiah 18:1-12 (KJV)
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

if anything it teaches human responsibility

Israel we saw was not elect because they chose to seek righteousness in a manner other than what God had chosen




~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.~~~

And ?

Yes his sheep know his voice

and snatching them out of his hand or that theyn never perish has nothing to do with the present discussion

..
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I'm trying to follow your logic. So far I'm following you.

worldly grief as in selfish worldly regrets?

You're saying: Paul is speaking of the repentance .... accompanied by godly sorrow.... that isn't akin to godly sorrow ... leading to repentance.
So if A= repentance and B = godly sorrow then
what you're saying is that (A and B) is not equal to (B and A)
Am I reading you correctly or am I missing something?

What is the "former"? What is the latter?
You're trying way too hard to engage in strife. Is that part of your new nature or old nature?
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
You need to prove they are chosen unconditionally

I said they were chosen from the foundation of the world....if you are chosen before you are born, predestined, how can it be conditional....

The verse says they were chosen in Christ

In christ is a condition that is fulfilled by faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Faith is granted by God.....he draws, grants and causes the elect to be reborn.

Yes and the elect were so because they sought righteousness based on faith

The sought righteousness based on faith because they are elect.

The non elect because they sought it based on works

You have no rebuttal

You presented nothing to rebut.

Nothing there about unconditional election from birth

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.



as for the potter

Israel was a flawed vessel because of their stubbornness and hardness of heart.

God hardens whom HE pleases.

God was going to use them as a vessel of dishonor - using them to effect the crucifixion

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory....

Israel was a flawed vessel because of their stubbornness and hardness of heart. God was going to use them as a vessel of dishonor - using them to effect the crucifixion

God hardened them for a reason....

Israel is God's chosen. He isn't remotely finished with them.
And ?

Yes his sheep know his voice

and snatching them out of his hand or that theyn never perish has nothing to do with the present discussion

..

I didn't quote that in my post, that is my signature line. Pay attention.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
TomFL said:
You need to prove they are chosen unconditionally
I said they were chosen from the foundation of the world....if you are chosen before you are born, predestined, how can it be conditional....

The church collectively or by foreknowledge

How can God chose non existent men. You have the same issue

TomFL said:
The verse says they were chosen in Christ

In christ is a condition that is fulfilled by faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Faith is granted by God.....he draws, grants and causes the elect to be reborn.

You are repeating yourself and you did not answer the objection

Election is in Christ

One must believe to be in Christ

That is a condition

We have already spoken of how God grant through the word and seen many verses showing regeneration being made alive follows after faith

TomFL said:
Yes and the elect were so because they sought righteousness based on faith
The sought righteousness based on faith because they are elect.

Except that is not what romans stated



TomFL said:
The non elect because they sought it based on works

You have no rebuttal
You presented nothing to rebut.

Of course there is. The elect obtained because they sought it by faith not because they were regenerated or irresistibly made to believe

The non elect were so because they did not seek it by faith

That is human responsibility and a condition which had to be met



TomFL said:
Nothing there about unconditional election from birth
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That verse has a context

Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

verse 29 is attached to verse 28 by the conjunction for

This is a promise to those who had loved God and were called according to his purpose

These are those God knew in the past - foreknew knew before you will note they were predestinated called justified glorified

glorified ?

These men had died and were now glorified

Compare Paul's use of foreknew in the same book a few chapters later

Romans 11:2-5 (KJV)
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Elias ?

These are men God had know previously

This is not a passage of unconditional election before they were born

but a promise to those who loved God and called according to his purpose


having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

don't confound predestination with unconditionasl election they are not the same

Believers are predestined

Those in Christ are predestined to adoption





TomFL said:
as for the potter

Israel was a flawed vessel because of their stubbornness and hardness of heart.
God hardens whom HE pleases.

Yes he hardened disobedient Israel

He may show mercy or he may harden the rebellious




TomFL said:
God was going to use them as a vessel of dishonor - using them to effect the crucifixion
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory....

Yes they were indeed fit for destruction

What is not noted however God fitted them to destruction

Further Paul and God still held out hope for their recovery

Romans 11:19-23 (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

so you can hardly say this was a case of reprobation



Except Israel is indeed His chosen.

You are not denying Jews were in fact being cutoff in Romans 9 are you ?

so what does that say about their being chosen

Israel was chosen lineage to bring the word of God and bear the messiah

But they were cutoff

Their being chosen was not a grounds for their being declared righteous
 
Last edited by a moderator:

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
I said they were chosen from the foundation of the world....if you are chosen before you are born, predestined, how can it be conditional....

The church collectively or by foreknowledge

How can God chose non existent men. You have the same issue


Faith is granted by God.....he draws, grants and causes the elect to be reborn.

You are repeating yourself and you did not answer the objection

Election is in Christ

One must believe to be in Christ

That is a condition

We have already spoken of how God grant through the word and seen many verses showing regeneration being made alive follows after faith


The sought righteousness based on faith because they are elect.

Except that is not what romans stated




You presented nothing to rebut.

Of course there is. The elect obtained because they sought it by faith not because they were regenerated or irresistibly made to believe

The non elect were so because they did not seek it by faith

That is human responsibility and a condition which had to be met



TomFL said:
Nothing there about unconditional election from birth
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That verse has a context

Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

verse 29 is attached to verse 28 by the conjunction for

This is a promise to those who had loved God and were called according to his purpose

These are those God knew in the past - foreknew knew before you will note they were predestinated called justified glorified

glorified ?

These men had died and were now glorified

Compare Paul's use of foreknew in the same book a few chapters later

Romans 11:2-5 (KJV)
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Elias ?

These are men God had know previously

This is not a passage of unconditional election before they were born

but a promise to those who loved God and called according to his purpose




don't confound predestination with unconditionasl election they are not the same

Believers are predestined

Those in Christ are predestined to adoption







Yes he hardened disobedient Israel

He may show mercy or he may harden the rebellious






Yes they were indeed fit for destruction

What is not noted however God fitted them to destruction

Further Paul and God still held out hope for their recovery

Romans 11:19-23 (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

so you can hardly say this was a case of reprobation





You are not denying Jews were in fact being cutoff in Romans 9 are you ?

so what does that say about their being chosen

Israel was chosen lineage to bring the word of God and bear the messiah

But they were cutoff

Their being chosen was not a grounds for their being declared righteous

Your quotes are all messed up again. Fix it. I'm not trying to figure out this mess.
 
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