All the Fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily ! WHEN ?

SteveB

Well-known member
Colossians 2:9 NKJV... For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;



Civic's statement surprised me, so I would like to hear from Civic's fellow TRINITARIANS on this forum...

WHEN did the fullness of the Godhead BEGIN dwelling in Jesus Bodily?
A) eternity past
B) the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent in it
C) Jesus' conception
D) Jesus' birth
E) Jesus' baptism
F) Jesus' resurrection
G) Jesus' ascension
H) other, please explain

I say B. Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
Show me where it says he didn't always have the fullness of the deity dwelling in him.

According to Philippians 2, he didn't think who he was was something that he needed to cling to, and so emptied himself, taking on the form of a servant, and became obedient to death..... even the death of the cross..... I don't see where he ceased being who he always was, is, and always will be.

Then according to John 1:1-3, and Colossians 1:16-19, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1, he created it all, he still sustains it, so it must've been sustained even while he was in the grave.

So..... please explain to me at what point did Jesus cease being who he was, is and always will be.

Does the King cease being a King because he took off his kingly robes, and attire?
I don't see where the King abdicated his rule. I do see where he laid aside the trappings of his Kingship, and dwelt among his citizens, showing himself as equal to his citizens--- capable of feeling what they feel, suffering what they suffer, experiencing what they experience.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Show me where it says he didn't always have the fullness of the deity dwelling in him.

You don't get to just make it up.

In context, Paul is obviously referring to the RISEN Christ.

According to Philippians 2, he didn't think who he was was something that he needed to cling to, and so emptied himself, taking on the form of a servant, and became obedient to death..... even the death of the cross..... I don't see where he ceased being who he always was, is, and always will be.

Then according to John 1:1-3, and Colossians 1:16-19, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1, he created it all, he still sustains it, so it must've been sustained even while he was in the grave.

So..... please explain to me at what point did Jesus cease being who he was, is and always will be.

Does the King cease being a King because he took off his kingly robes, and attire?
I don't see where the King abdicated his rule. I do see where he laid aside the trappings of his Kingship, and dwelt among his citizens, showing himself as equal to his citizens--- capable of feeling what they feel, suffering what they suffer, experiencing what they experience.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You don't get to just make it up.
I didn't make anything up.
It's laid out pretty clearly in the bible from what I have read.

In context, Paul is obviously referring to the RISEN Christ.
And?
I don't lock out all the other passages which show the whole picture, instead of a single pixel of the picture.
Perhaps this is the problem. You're so focused on a single tree, you're not willing to step back and see the whole forest.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I didn't make anything up.
It's laid out pretty clearly in the bible from what I have read.

Oh is that so? Where did you read that Jesus had the fullness of deity dwelling in him bodily before his resurrection?

And?
I don't lock out all the other passages which show the whole picture, instead of a single pixel of the picture.
Perhaps this is the problem. You're so focused on a single tree, you're not willing to step back and see the whole forest.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Oh is that so? Where did you read that Jesus had the fullness of deity dwelling in him bodily before his resurrection?
Phil. 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​

John 8
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[fn] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”​

Micah 5
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,​
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,​
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me​
The One to be Ruler in Israel,​
Whose goings forth are from of old,​
From everlasting.”​

Isaiah 9
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.​
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.​
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Malachi 3
1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.​
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight.​
Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.​
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming?​
And who can stand when He appears?​
For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.​
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.​
......​

“For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.​

Rather curious how this sounds similar to Hebrews 13:8

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

As it states in Hebrews 10, sourced from Psalm 40

6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened.​
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.​
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.​
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”​

I can do this for a while.
Seriously...... you should just take the time to read the whole bible.
Moreover, I'm still waiting for you to answer the questions I'd asked you in another forum that you walked away from several weeks ago now.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Phil. 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

John 8
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[fn] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

Micah 5
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,​
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,​
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me​
The One to be Ruler in Israel,​
Whose goings forth are from of old,​
From everlasting.”​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

Isaiah 9
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.​
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.​
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

Malachi 3
1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.​
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight.​
Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.​
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming?​
And who can stand when He appears?​
For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.​
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.​

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

......​

“For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.​

Rather curious how this sounds similar to Hebrews 13:8

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

As it states in Hebrews 10, sourced from Psalm 40

6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened.​
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.​
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.​
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”​

I can do this for a while.
Seriously...... you should just take the time to read the whole bible.
Moreover, I'm still waiting for you to answer the questions I'd asked you in another forum that you walked away from several weeks ago now.

That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

Was I supposed to resort to my imagination and IMAGINE these texts are referring to the fullness of deity bodily? do tell.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.



That's a fail. Nothing about the fullness of deity bodily here.

Was I supposed to resort to my imagination and IMAGINE these texts are referring to the fullness of deity bodily? do tell.
Got it.
So nothing which does not fit your biases has nothing to do with Who Jesus is, and always has been.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I am not interested in your imaginations. Where's your facts?
I've already presented them. But since you deny the bible, it's pretty clear that no truth will suffice for you. And as you've previously failed to deal with an earlier thread you walked away from, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is self-righteous.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I've already presented them. But since you deny the bible, it's pretty clear that no truth will suffice for you. And as you've previously failed to deal with an earlier thread you walked away from, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is self-righteous.

No, sorry but verses where you expect people to participate along with you in eisegetically imagining ideas into the text are not facts. You need to try again.

In context, at Colossians 2:9 it is clear Paul is referring to the glorified and exalted Christ who was raised bodily into glory. And that's why the next verse says were are likewise MADE FULL in him, in the risen Christ, and we are his body.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Cherry picking manuscript variants is never a good idea.

He appeared in a body (NIV)

He who was manifested in the flesh (ASV)

He who was revealed in the flesh (NASB)

Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

He was manifested in the flesh (RSV)

He was revealed in flesh (NRSV)

Which was manifested in the flesh (Douey-Rheims)

He was revealed in the flesh (NET)

He was manifested in the flesh (ESV)
And the He clearly refers to God.
 
Cherry picking manuscript variants is never a good idea.

He appeared in a body (NIV)

He who was manifested in the flesh (ASV)

He who was revealed in the flesh (NASB)

Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

He was manifested in the flesh (RSV)

He was revealed in flesh (NRSV)

Which was manifested in the flesh (Douey-Rheims)

He was revealed in the flesh (NET)

He was manifested in the flesh (ESV)
I agree, but who is the "He" referring to? I believe it is the Living God in verse 15.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
No, sorry but verses where you expect people to participate along with you in eisegetically imagining ideas into the text are not facts. You need to try again.

In context, at Colossians 2:9 it is clear Paul is referring to the glorified and exalted Christ who was raised bodily into glory. And that's why the next verse says were are likewise MADE FULL in him, in the risen Christ, and we are his body.
But we, UNLIKE Christ, have 0% of The Godhead dwelling in us bodily.
 

Yahchristian

Active member
Cherry picking manuscript variants is never a good idea.

He appeared in a body (NIV)

He who was manifested in the flesh (ASV)

He who was revealed in the flesh (NASB)

Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

He was manifested in the flesh (RSV)

He was revealed in flesh (NRSV)

Which was manifested in the flesh (Douey-Rheims)

He was revealed in the flesh (NET)

He was manifested in the flesh (ESV)

And the He clearly refers to God.

I totally agree with that statement!!!


But just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...

Does "He" in that verse refer to a PERSON?

"He" who was manifested in the flesh.

Simple question.


P.S.

I would have thought you would have made one of these statements...
"And the He clearly refers to the Son of God."
"And the He clearly refers to one of the members of God."
"And the He clearly refers to someone with the nature of God."

Here is a concise statement of what I believe...
The spirit Yahweh is the only one who is eternal. Yahweh is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. Yahweh in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, Yahweh in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal Yahweh is called God the Father.

And here is a more detailed overview...
(Note: I agree with the view of Melito, Bishop of Sardis around AD 160-180. The following is how I word it.)
For this creation, Yahweh God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how Yahweh would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent Yahweh (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Son of God) with a glorious human body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Son of God. But whereas Yahweh created a human spirit and soul for each of us, Yahweh himself became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
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johnny guitar

Well-known member
I totally agree with that statement!!!


But just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...

Does "He" in that verse refer to a PERSON?

"He" who was manifested in the flesh.

Simple question.


P.S.

I would have thought you would have made one of these statements...
"And the He clearly refers to the Son of God."
"And the He clearly refers to one of the members of God."
"And the He clearly refers to someone with the nature of God."

Here is a concise statement of what I believe...
The spirit Yahweh is the only one who is eternal. Yahweh is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. Yahweh in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, Yahweh in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal Yahweh is called God the Father.

And here is a more detailed overview...
(Note: I agree with the view of Melito, Bishop of Sardis around AD 160-180. The following is how I word it.)
For this creation, Yahweh God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how Yahweh would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent Yahweh (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Son of God) with a glorious human body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Son of God. But whereas Yahweh created a human spirit and soul for each of us, Yahweh himself became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
Yes, I agree that He refers to a Person, since it was The SON who appeared in the flesh.
 
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