Allah is the God of the Bible -- say orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

Tiburon

Well-known member
You don't really know what they did because you weren't there, especially in times of yore before the exile. For a start, the law of Moses was likely to have been originally written in the proto-Hebrew alphabet discovered written on the walls of the mines in Timna and Serabit el Khadim and then become gradually 'translated' into the modern Hebrew of today, where Hebrew is also much indebted to the Canaanite language. Over the course of 1500 years, languages and words do change, just like in English. Imagine reading English of 1500 years ago. You wouldn't understand it.
You're making a case against your own claim.
That language changes over time is the very reason we can date it's authorship.

Indeed. That doesn't mean to say that every last dot "has to" be obeyed. It all depends on what the Spirit commands. Most of the time it does enforce a fairly standard conformity, especially in respect of the higher commandments. Not so much over ritual which was only a copy and shaddow of heavenly things.
What the spirit commands? So you just do what you feel like?
If Jesus didn't mean what he said then why say it?

What I just said came direct from Heb 1:3. Trinitarianism is a problem not only in the way it is formulated in words that aren't found in the bible, but because it confuses concepts and muddles everything to insist on a conformity not with the bible, but with Hermetic philosophy and early Greek and Latin "fathers" who even conceded that Trinitarianism was a blend of Jewish and Greek concepts.

There are "three that are called God and reverenced as God" per 2 Thess 2:4, but that doesn't mean to say that "God is comprised of three persons" is a scripturally accurate thing to say, for none of the apostles say this. The whole subject of Trinitarianism is a minefield, but what you need to know is the scripture declares the Father to be axiomatically God, and the Logos is God because the Father dwells in the Logis, spiritually speaking. This is sensible because otherwise the Father would potentially cease being God. All it is saying is that whatever the Father dwells in must itself (or himself) be God.
The Trinity was just invented to deal with the conundrum of who and what Jesus was.
I don't understand how the Father would potentially cease being God.
 

cjab

Active member
You're making a case against your own claim.
That language changes over time is the very reason we can date it's authorship.
Not, because you don't have the originals and you don't know what words have been substituted in new copies.

What the spirit commands? So you just do what you feel like?
If Jesus didn't mean what he said then why say it?
Of course he meant what he said. If you're not interested in spiritual things, I'm not wasting my time further discussing it here.

The Trinity was just invented to deal with the conundrum of who and what Jesus was.
I don't understand how the Father would potentially cease being God.
The Father never did cease being God. The Trinity wasn't invented to deal with the conundrum of who and what Jesus was (he was the Son of God per the apostles and Jesus himself) but invented to convince the Greeks that Christianity had something worthwhile to offer them. For Trinitarianism was modeled centuries after Christ on the Greek religion / philosophy, not the Jewish religion that had produced the apostles and Christ.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Not, because you don't have the originals and you don't know what words have been substituted in new copies.


Of course he meant what he said. If you're not interested in spiritual things, I'm not wasting my time further discussing it here.


The Father never did cease being God. The Trinity wasn't invented to deal with the conundrum of who and what Jesus was (he was the Son of God per the apostles and Jesus himself) but invented to convince the Greeks that Christianity had something worthwhile to offer them. For Trinitarianism was modeled centuries after Christ on the Greek religion / philosophy, not the Jewish religion that had produced the apostles and Christ.
If we don't know what words have been substituted in new copies why trust any of it?

'Spiritual things' is what people fall back on when they run out of argument.

How did the Trinity convince the Greeks that Christianity had something worthwhile to offer them. Paul was apparently already converting Greeks and I don't see anything to suggest that he was preaching the Trinity.
 

cjab

Active member
If we don't know what words have been substituted in new copies why trust any of it?
Because it is internally consistent, and agrees with historical data and archaeology.

And because all the promises were delivered upon exactly as stated.

'Spiritual things' is what people fall back on when they run out of argument.
You're either interested in things like guilt, forgiveness, redemption, repentance, etc, or you're not. If you're not the bible will certainly be irrelevant to you. There isn't any point in feigning an interest if ultimately you're not interested because actually you quite like the immoral freedoms that our atheist governments hand you in the name of democracy and freedom from religion.

That is the one thing that Islam had going for it: it didn't allow people freedom from religion and unified under the name of religion, even if a crude, vain and idolatrous religion, those who weren't previously unified and wouldn't otherwise have been unified.

How did the Trinity convince the Greeks that Christianity had something worthwhile to offer them. Paul was apparently already converting Greeks and I don't see anything to suggest that he was preaching the Trinity.
Paul wasn't interested in the Trinity. The Trinity came after the age of the apostles, and in the era of neo-platonism. The origins of Neoplatonism can be traced back to the era of Hellenistic syncretism which spawned such movements and schools of thought as Gnosticism and the Hermetic tradition.

So-called Christians such as Justin Martyr and Augustine designed apologies to synthesize or rather syncretize Greek religion with Christianity. They pretended that the "seeds of Christianity" (manifestations of the Logos acting in history) predated Christ's incarnation. This notion allows them to claim many historical Greek philosophers (including Socrates and Plato), in whose works they were well studied, as unknowing Christians.

The infusion of Greek religion into Jewish religion was gradual and unrelenting. Starting off with the use of unbiblical terms such as "God the Son" and "God the Word" by the church fathers, it progressed to a formal trinity of divine emanations, such that the later fathers acknowledged that their religion was a combination of both Jewish and pagan elements.

 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Jews in general acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.

Not true.

“Jews in general” DO NOT believe in the God of the Bible! Much less the God of the Koran.

The Pew Research report states... About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible,

 

sk0rpi0n

Member
Not true.

“Jews in general” DO NOT believe in the God of the Bible! Much less the God of the Koran.

The Pew Research report states... About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible,


I was talking specifically about Jews who believe in God. In general, they acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I was talking specifically about Jews who believe in God. In general, they acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.

Gotcha.

So you are actually saying...

Of the 26% of Jews who think Abraham is a historical person and has a God as described in the Bible, most of THEM acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Because it is internally consistent, and agrees with historical data and archaeology.

And because all the promises were delivered upon exactly as stated.


You're either interested in things like guilt, forgiveness, redemption, repentance, etc, or you're not. If you're not the bible will certainly be irrelevant to you. There isn't any point in feigning an interest if ultimately you're not interested because actually you quite like the immoral freedoms that our atheist governments hand you in the name of democracy and freedom from religion.

That is the one thing that Islam had going for it: it didn't allow people freedom from religion and unified under the name of religion, even if a crude, vain and idolatrous religion, those who weren't previously unified and wouldn't otherwise have been unified.


Paul wasn't interested in the Trinity. The Trinity came after the age of the apostles, and in the era of neo-platonism. The origins of Neoplatonism can be traced back to the era of Hellenistic syncretism which spawned such movements and schools of thought as Gnosticism and the Hermetic tradition.

So-called Christians such as Justin Martyr and Augustine designed apologies to synthesize or rather syncretize Greek religion with Christianity. They pretended that the "seeds of Christianity" (manifestations of the Logos acting in history) predated Christ's incarnation. This notion allows them to claim many historical Greek philosophers (including Socrates and Plato), in whose works they were well studied, as unknowing Christians.

The infusion of Greek religion into Jewish religion was gradual and unrelenting. Starting off with the use of unbiblical terms such as "God the Son" and "God the Word" by the church fathers, it progressed to a formal trinity of divine emanations, such that the later fathers acknowledged that their religion was a combination of both Jewish and pagan elements.

"Because it is internally consistent, and agrees with historical data and archaeology."
Only it doesn't.

The Bible is irrelevant to me because I don't believe it comes from a divine source.
 

cjab

Active member
"Because it is internally consistent, and agrees with historical data and archaeology."
Only it doesn't.

The Bible is irrelevant to me because I don't believe it comes from a divine source.
May be you've got the wrong attitude.

Luk 11:10 "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

If you're not searching, you won't find.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
May be you've got the wrong attitude.

Luk 11:10 "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

If you're not searching, you won't find.
I searched for many years and found nothing.
 

cjab

Active member
I searched for many years and found nothing.
May be you got sidetracked and waylaid by ignorant persons.

Matt 13:3 "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear."
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Jesus. I asked him to come into my life and be my saviour. Still waiting.

What do you mean by “searching for Jesus... still waiting”?

Jesus is the most significant person in history. Everyone’s calendar is based on Jesus’ existence, and around 32% of the world’s population calls Jesus Lord.

So I don’t think you mean... searching to determine if Jesus actually lived.

Perhaps you mean one of the following...

A) Waiting for physical contact with Jesus
B) Waiting for my behavior to change to Jesus’ example
C) Waiting for my guilt to go away
D) Other, please explain

I am sincerely interested to know what you mean when you say you searched for Jesus but haven’t succeeded.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
What do you mean by “searching for Jesus... still waiting”?

Jesus is the most significant person in history. Everyone’s calendar is based on Jesus’ existence, and around 32% of the world’s population calls Jesus Lord.

So I don’t think you mean... searching to determine if Jesus actually lived.

Perhaps you mean one of the following...

A) Waiting for physical contact with Jesus
B) Waiting for my behavior to change to Jesus’ example
C) Waiting for my guilt to go away
D) Other, please explain

I am sincerely interested to know what you mean when you say you searched for Jesus but haven’t succeeded.
Jesus is not the most significant person in history. Most people accept that Jesus lived even though we don't have real evidence to prove it.

When I say waiting for Jesus I mean waiting for that life changing moment many Christians describe when they repent of their sins, accept Christ as their personal saviour and are filled with the "Holy Spirit". I felt nothing.
 
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