Allah is the God of the Bible -- say orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

dingoling.

Well-known member
If Jesus is really the literal son of the Father, then there would have been a time when Jesus did not exist. Fathers precede their sons, right?
No, because Jesus is eternally begotten. Jesus is eternal just as God the father and God the Holy Spirit are eternal.
 

Biblican

Well-known member

This video is a collection of clips showing some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis speak about Islam. They state their view that Allah (swt), the God of the Muslims is the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- the God of the Bible that was worshiped by the Israelites -- and that Jews and Muslims worship the same God.

I'm not saying Jews agree with Islam 100% but only that Jews in general acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
I think that if a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim were all looking at a mountain and the Christian said, "I worship the God that made that mountain." The Jew and the Muslim would also have to say, "We worship the God who made that mountain." There is only one God that made that mountain. The point is these three groups all profess belief in the One True God of Abraham. We all believe different things about Him that need to be reconciled. But if we can begin by acknowledging a mutual belief in Abraham's God, it's a good place to start a peaceful dialogue.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I think that if a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim were all looking at a mountain and the Christian said, "I worship the God that made that mountain." The Jew and the Muslim would also have to say, "We worship the God who made that mountain." There is only one God that made that mountain. The point is these three groups all profess belief in the One True God of Abraham. We all believe different things about Him that need to be reconciled. But if we can begin by acknowledging a mutual belief in Abraham's God, it's a good place to start a peaceful dialogue.
Except that in the Bible the promise was for Isaac and the Jews and not for Ishmael. So the Quran of the Muslims, which came much later, is at odds with the Old Testament of the Jews and Christians.
So no absolutely not
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was/is "eternally begotten"?
Jesus said very clearly in several places that He pre-existed. If He eternally pre-existed then we don't have a Father and Son, we have two co-eternal "gods" and that is polytheism. So based on the fact that Jesus pre-existed, we have to conclude that He had a beginning at some point in infinity. This was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded for the most part. The word "begotten" is used in association with Jesus' beginning because anyone who is begotten or birthed, must come from a pre-existing substance. That substance had to have been the Father's Holy Spirit. While the early church believed and I agree with this, that Jesus always existed within the Father, His person, who He is, was birthed from the Father, "This day I have begotten you" Psalm 2:7, then eventually placed in Mary's body, which matches the Koran's view of it.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Except that in the Bible the promise was for Isaac and the Jews and not for Ishmael. So the Quran of the Muslims, which came much later, is at odds with the Old Testament of the Jews and Christians.
So no absolutely not
Like I said, they claim belief in the God of Abraham, but they believe different things about Him and, I agree, those things are at odds with what the Bible actually teaches. But I can say the same thing about many of today's denominations and cults.
 

2ndActs

New Member
Jesus said very clearly in several places that He pre-existed. If He eternally pre-existed then we don't have a Father and Son, we have two co-eternal "gods" and that is polytheism. So based on the fact that Jesus pre-existed, we have to conclude that He had a beginning at some point in infinity. This was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded for the most part. The word "begotten" is used in association with Jesus' beginning because anyone who is begotten or birthed, must come from a pre-existing substance. That substance had to have been the Father's Holy Spirit. While the early church believed and I agree with this, that Jesus always existed within the Father, His person, who He is, was birthed from the Father, "This day I have begotten you" Psalm 2:7, then eventually placed in Mary's body, which matches the Koran's view of it.
The is nothing new in your argument. It has been around along as Arianism in the 4th Century that was refuted at that time. And as he pre existed why do you presume , we have two co-eternal "gods". Its simple really in that they are two different parts of the same. No polytheism about it. Consider the sun in the sky. The sun is distinct but yet it emanates both light and heat. Two different parts of the same.
If Jesus pre-existed then obviously God pre existed. Hence there is no beginning at some point in infinity for either God The Father or God The Son. So, no. your logic is faulty.

You are also wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded. The theology you are promoting is called Arianism which did not arise until the 4th Century. Before the 4th Century the early church held the orthodox position which Christians hold today. Arianism was refuted by the scriptures themselves during the Council of Nicea. Also as I pointed our the early church did not believe in Arian theology before the 4th Century.

You are misunderstanding the term “begotten”. The word is “monogenes” with the emphasis on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. This view is compatible with Psalm 2:7 and as I said, you are wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church. This does not match the Quran.





 

BMS

Well-known member
Like I said, they claim belief in the God of Abraham, but they believe different things about Him and, I agree, those things are at odds with what the Bible actually teaches. But I can say the same thing about many of today's denominations and cults.
Or rather the Muslims dont believe in the God of Abraham. Look rather to God than Abraham
 

Biblican

Well-known member
The is nothing new in your argument. It has been around along as Arianism in the 4th Century that was refuted at that time. And as he pre existed why do you presume , we have two co-eternal "gods". Its simple really in that they are two different parts of the same. No polytheism about it. Consider the sun in the sky. The sun is distinct but yet it emanates both light and heat. Two different parts of the same.
If Jesus pre-existed then obviously God pre existed. Hence there is no beginning at some point in infinity for either God The Father or God The Son. So, no. your logic is faulty.

You are also wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded. The theology you are promoting is called Arianism which did not arise until the 4th Century. Before the 4th Century the early church held the orthodox position which Christians hold today. Arianism was refuted by the scriptures themselves during the Council of Nicea. Also as I pointed our the early church did not believe in Arian theology before the 4th Century.

You are misunderstanding the term “begotten”. The word is “monogenes” with the emphasis on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. This view is compatible with Psalm 2:7 and as I said, you are wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church. This does not match the Quran.
The doctrine that Jesus had a beginning at some point in infinity is the orthodox doctrine and is not the same thing that Arias taught. Calvin, Wesley, Justin Martyr and the fourth and fifth councils all recorded that Jesus was twice begotten, once prior to His incarnation and again through Mary. Arius' issue was with Jesus' divinity.
Jesus is the image of God, therefore as you said which is correct, Jesus is a different part of the same element. His soul is begotten as God's image and His spirit is God's spirit making them one.
The word for begotten in Hebrews 1:5 is gennao, which means 'to be born.'
 

Biblican

Well-known member

This video is a collection of clips showing some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis speak about Islam. They state their view that Allah (swt), the God of the Muslims is the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- the God of the Bible that was worshiped by the Israelites -- and that Jews and Muslims worship the same God.

I'm not saying Jews agree with Islam 100% but only that Jews in general acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
There is only One True God, the God of Abraham, which Muslims profess to worship. What they believe about Him differs from Jewish and Christian beliefs.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member

This video is a collection of clips showing some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis speak about Islam. They state their view that Allah (swt), the God of the Muslims is the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- the God of the Bible that was worshiped by the Israelites -- and that Jews and Muslims worship the same God.

I'm not saying Jews agree with Islam 100% but only that Jews in general acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
Their wrong God’s name is not Allah it is Jehovah.
 

Lee Magee

Member
(perhaps Ruda, as identified by Macdonald in North Arabian in the First Millennium BC, 1360), and a sky goddess know as Allat. (Herodotus III,3.) Later Allat became referred to in the masculine form as Allah)"

They cooked up a sun god, Ra and others until Mohammad. They don't have a genealogy from Ishmael till Mohammad.

Allat and Allah are names of Anat, the Phoenician virgin goddess. In Elephantine she is named Anat-Yahu i.e. Athena Paeonia (Ἀθήνη Παιώνια) meaning Healer Athena. No wonder יהוה ,אלה, צבאות have effeminate or plural endings. The Jewish God is a woman.
 

akay

Member
Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:



“Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4]



Who is God in islam?







The Most Concise Definition of God:



The most concise definition of God in Islam is given in the four verses of Surah Ikhlas which is Chapter 112 of the Qur’an:



"Say: He is Allah,

The One and Only.

"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him."

[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

God does not become a human being:



God does not take human form:







Some may argue that God does not become a human being but only takes a human form. If God only takes a human form but does not become a human being, He should not possess any human qualities. We know that all the ‘God-men’, have human qualities and failings. They have all the human needs such as the need to eat, sleep, etc.



The worship of God in human form is therefore a logical fallacy and should be abhorred in all its forms and manifestations.



That is the reason why the Qur’an speaks against all forms of anthropomorphism. The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:



"There is nothing whatever like unto Him."

[Al-Qur’an 42:11]

Concept of God in Islam - Dr Zakir Naik






Who is God in Christianity?

The Prophets of the Old Testament such as Abraham, Noah and Jonah never preached that God is part of a Trinity, and did not believe in Jesus as their saviour. Their message was simple: there is one God and He alone deserves your worship. It doesn’t make sense that God sent Prophets for thousands of years with the same essential message, and then all of a sudden he says he is in a Trinity and that you must believe in Jesus to be saved.



The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One.



But Christians worship Jesus

They deny all Jesus said that he is not a god but a prophet of God



\\\\\\\\\\\\\



Concept of God in Judaism



II) The notion of God in Judaism:



(i) The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (PSL)



"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad"



It is a quote in Hebrew which means:

"Hear, Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord"

[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6: 4]



The following verses are taken from the Book of Isaiah:



(ii) "I, I am the Lord, and outside me there is none who saves. [The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]



(iii) "I am the Lord, and there is no other, there is no other God than me. [The Bible, Isaiah 45: 5]



(iv) "I am God, and there is no other, I am God, and no one is like Me. [The Bible, Isaiah 46: 9]



(v) Judaism condemns the worship of idols in the following verses:

"" You will not have other gods before me ".

"You shall not make yourself a cut image, nor any likeness of what is in the heavens above, and what is on the earth below, and what is in the waters below the earth: "

"You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God." [The Bible, Exodus 20: 3-5]







In Judaism too, we find the same thread of monotheism, which is seen in other religions.



But

The Jews distorted the concept of God as Christians did



God , Jehovah, and he is not an infallible God, but errs and revolts, and falls into remorse, and he commands theft, and he is cruel, fanatic, and destructive to his people, he is the God of Israel only, and he is thus an enemy of others, and they claim that he walks before a group of the children of Israel In a column of clouds.

is belief enough 1 من هو إلهك ؟








is belief enough 2 من هو إلهك ؟


is belief enough 3 من هو إلهك ؟

 

cjab

Well-known member
Yes, I was probably quoting the wrong bible version (i.e. KJV). Rather "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement." (non-Johannine Comma). This shows that everything respecting heaven, including past and current witness, is in agreement (not so with Islam).

With Islam the Holy Spirit becomes a mere angel, and God himself has no spirit as such. Islam is thus a religion of angel worship, because Allah is unknowable except through angels. Even Mahomet is reduced to being possessed by an angelic spirit. Because there are both good and evil angels, Isalm has problems identifying which angels are good and which are evil. How can one even know whether Mahomet was possessed by a good angelic spirit, or a bad one?

So there is a serious issue with the credibility of the witnesses in Islam. And whoever put the Koran together was not Mahomet, but someone with a vested interest in promoting Islam as a (political) doctrine of State supremacy.
 
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